Dr. Cannas presented a Real Science Lecture webinar on October 17, 2023, titled “Diets of Productive Sheep & Goats: Performance & Health.” You can find the webinar recording at balchem.com/realscience.
Dr. Cannas presented a Real Science Lecture webinar on October 17, 2023, titled “Diets of Productive Sheep & Goats: Performance & Health.” You can find the webinar recording at balchem.com/realscience.
Dr. Cannas outlines the topics he covered in his webinar, including nutritional requirement differences between small and large ruminants, particularly in late gestation. Small ruminants have a shorter gestation and are more prolific than cattle, for example, and this means they have more nutritional challenges in late gestation. Dr. Cannas covered supplementation, basal diet quality, and sorting ewes or does by number of fetuses. He also discussed how high milk-producing sheep and goats partition nutrients. (10:36)
Many people treat sheep and goats like smaller, low-producing cattle. Dr. Cannas considers this approach a big mistake. During pregnancy and lactation, sheep and goats are highly-producing animals that garner the same attention given to high-producing dairy and beef cattle. Dr. Texeira agrees and reminds the audience that just because sheep and goats are very adaptable animals doesn’t mean you should feed them low-quality diets. Jessica mentions that providing poor-quality feed may not allow the ewe or doe to meet her genetic potential. (21:51)
The panel discusses the importance of record keeping and data to evaluate management changes. (27:31)
Jessica asks about how Antonello fed rumen-protected choline in his experiments. They fed individually to ensure each animal received the correct dose but recommended to mix it into a TMR or mineral supplement for on-farm feeding. (33:12)
Izabelle asks how many groups most farms sort ewes or does into before lambing or kidding in Sardinia. Antonello says it depends on the individual farm because they are so diverse, but at least two groups, singles and twins. They may also sort based on the number of days pregnant as well. He describes some experimental results from feeding rumen-protected choline to ewes carrying singles versus twins. (35:35)
Dr. Teixeira describes some of the challenges sheep and goat producers face in her native Brazil due to heat stress. Jessica gives examples of management strategies to help manage heat stress based on her work at Cornell. (41:14)
The panel discussed challenges with body condition scoring goats using a sheep scale since goats store more fat internally or in other locations like the tail. They also discuss recommendations for target body condition scores at different stages of the production cycle. (48:00)
In summary, Jessica recommends that sheep and goat producers focus on what they do well, make small changes to improve their operation, and collect data to see what is working and what is not working. Izabelle encourages producers to understand what is happening physiologically in each stage of production to best manage nutritional challenges. Antonello reiterates that sheep and goats should be given the same attention and care as high-producing dairy cows. It is a complex business and there is much room for improvement in the management of small ruminants. (57:27)
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Scott Sorrell (00:00:07):
Hello everyone, and welcome to the Real Science Exchange, the pubcast where leading scientists and industry professionals meet over a few drinks to discuss the latest ideas and trends in animal animal nutrition. Hi, I'm Scott Sorell. I'm gonna be your host tonight here at The Real Science Exchange, and I wanna welcome Dr. Antonello Cannas to further discuss balancing rations for productive sheep and goats. Dr. Cannas gave a presentation on the Real Science Lecture series on small ruminant nutrition back in October, on October 17th, 2023. And if you'd like to go back and watch that, just go to Balchem.com/realscience. Scroll down to the October 17th date, and you'll have it there, and you'll be able to view it there. So, Dr. Cannas, welcome. I'm looking forward to a deeper dive into the topic tonight. And I, I believe this is your first time to the pub. So in, in the theme of our, our podcast, what, what's in your glass tonight? Or if nothing, what would be in your glass tonight?
Dr. Antonello Cannas (00:01:13):
In honor of, of my discussion partner, I, I brought a Cachaça , which is a Brazilian I alcohol product, but I'm undecided. I have also a glass of local wine, so during the time of the, to maybe switch.
Scott Sorrell (00:01:34):
Yeah. So I think I told you before, I've had a lot of fine wines all across Italy. Is there any specific to Sardinia that are good?
Dr. Antonello Cannas (00:01:44):
Well, the most famous Sardinia and varieties are for the white, the ferment wine, which is producing the area with acidic soils. It's very, very good white wine with fairly high alcohol and, but at the same time with very, with accentuated flavors. So it's a nice combination for the red wines. The most famous is canon now, which is a Grenache type of wine belongs to a larger family of wines produced over but my favorite is a local variety called Cannula, which is a red wine produced in the area near my university. So, a kind of niche one,
Scott Sorrell (00:02:32):
Perhaps. I'll look forward to having some, maybe I can come visit sometime.
Dr. Antonello Cannas (00:02:35):
I think you should come. Oh, I should bring to you next time with me,
Scott Sorrell (00:02:39):
Sounds good. Sounds good. I failed to mention that you're with the University of Sassari And that is in Sardinia, and I also understand that perhaps sheep there outnumber the people. Is that correct?
Dr. Antonello Cannas (00:02:53):
Oh, yes. We have one in Sardinia, we have which is the sides of Vermont State, more or less the island. We have 1.6 million people and 3.1 million sheep, dairy sheep, plus around 300,000 dairy goats and equivalent number of cattles. So we have many more animals producing animals than humans. Yeah, interesting. And of course, the lack of the, the short there, small number of humans allows to have a lot of free land for animal production.
Scott Sorrell (00:03:29):
Yeah. Great. Well, listen, looking forward to the conversation tonight. I see that you've brought a guest. Would you mind introducing her and explain why you selected Izabelle to be your guest tonight?
Dr. Antonello Cannas (00:03:43):
Yes. professor Izabelle Auxiliadora is originally from Brazil. She worked, has been working a lot on jumo ruminants, even though now she's working more on dairy cattle in United States, the Idaho State University. She has been working on small ruminants. She has been involved in very aspects, especially on on daily goods. I will say I visited her many years ago. She has an excellent, she had an excellent experimental farm. A very well managed with a lot of experiments going on at the same time. She has, she has done a lot of work on the area of requirements with many comparative trials both on growing animal and adult producing goats. She also done a lot of work on rheumatoid novel. Also she comes from an area in which it stress is common. So she has a specific important view of the requirements of the goal, highly producing goals in these specific conditions, which are not so common, for example, in Europe or North America.
Dr. Antonello Cannas (00:05:04):
So she has a very broad expertise on value aspects of goals requirements and nutrition, eat stress. And now she has been working a lot on modeling also. She was she attended the the workshop on modeling. We did the inserts, so-called Modern Art, which is a workshop she organized before me in nine three, four years ago. Yeah. so she's also well known in the area of the nutritional modeling where she's been working a lot. So I think she has a complimentary expertise in the sense for both of her climatic reasons. Also, because I tended to work a little bit more on ship down goat. She, she's more expert on gods, she at least that in terms of research, in terms of competence. She has a broad competence on various species.
Scott Sorrell (00:06:07):
Great. Great. I'm sure she's gonna be a great guest tonight, Izabelle, welcome. Anything in keeping with our theme, anything in your class tonight?
Dr. Izabelle Auxiliadora (00:06:18):
Yeah, sure. So I had the mug that my students gave to me when I came to the US, so with our lab. And I had in heat tea, because I know that we should be drinking some alcoholic, but I'm passing today. I think that's okay.
Scott Sorrell (00:06:42):
Yeah. Well, Dr. Cannas he's having a Brazilian wine on your behalf, so you, you're covered.
Dr. Izabelle Auxiliadora (00:06:48):
Yeah, so that's, have you, if you've never been to Brazil before, you should try Cachaça, especially in one specific drink that's called Kypadina. That's a must. It's Cachaça and, and Lime. So you should try.
Dr. Antonello Cannas (00:07:04):
and sugar, it's a very problematic drink because it's sweet. You don't feel there is so much alcohol. So it's a, it's a dangerous drink because you may feel you're drinking Coke or something like that, but you're drinking something very alcoholic. So, Yeah. With some side effects of,
Dr. Izabelle Auxiliadora (00:07:24):
And we do have some aged Cachaça that are really good. So I had a very good friend in the US that is so well friend from Balchem as well. Dr. Mark, he loves the Cachaça.
Scott Sorrell (00:07:39):
Okay. We've had Mark on here several times. Good. Well, I can't forget my co-host tonight. I wanna welcome Jessica Waltemyer,. She's a faculty manager at Cornell University's College of Agriculture and Life Sciences. Jessica this is your first time to the pub, and I can't thank you enough for joining us to the Real Science Exchange. Really looking forward to the discussion. Anything special in your glass tonight?
Jessica Waltemyer (00:08:06):
In my glass tonight, I am drinking Cayuga White, which is a wine from our Finger Lakes region in New York State. So not very far from the Ithaca main campus where I normally reside, I feel like. And so I enjoy the, the white wine that comes from the Finger Lakes, and it comes from Castle Greece, which is a semi-local winery near us.
Scott Sorrell (00:08:30):
Okay. Is that a sweet one? Are they sweet up there?
Jessica Waltemyer (00:08:32):
It is mildly sweet. Yes.
Scott Sorrell (00:08:34):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good deal. I, myself, I'm having something called a Sour Land Mountain Straight Bourbon Whiskey. My wife took me to a a farmer's market this weekend, and one of the local vendors had a a booth set up, and of course, I had to taste it. And yes, of course, I brought home a bottle. So, anyway before we get started, let's raise our glass to a great conversation tonight. Cheers. Cheers.
Dr. Antonello Cannas (00:09:02):
Cheers.
Speaker 5 (00:09:10):
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Scott Sorrell (00:10:12):
So, Antonello, I'm gonna jump right in. As you mentioned you presented during the Real science Lecture series, and we had over 420 people registered for that lecture, which, which is a pretty good number for us. And so people are obviously looking for more information about sheep and goat diets. So what I'd like to do is just kind of start off, if you could kind of give us just kind of a brief overview of, of what did you cover during that lecture?
Dr. Antonello Cannas (00:10:42):
Yes. during that lecture, I first tried to, I liked the peculiarity was more ruminants in terms of requirements, especially during the pregnancy. The fact that is more ruminants have a shorter pregnancy but also are very prolific, makes them quite different from, let's say, cattle in general, because they have a very they have a much higher challenge, especially in late pregnancy, a nutritional challenge given by the very high requirements of the fetus, the short length of the pregnancy. So based on that print, that initial concept and difference, I try to, to explain what are the nutritional challenges that shipping goats face during pregnancy? Especially the problems of the energy balance, the difficulty of maintain and appropriate energy balance, especially in late pregnancy. I mentioned the possible, I described the possible negative outcomes like subclinical ketosis pregnancy toxemia, which is ketosis, but also hypocalcemia and acidosis that may occur when the farmers try to compensate for the negative energy balance, balance supply in many concentrate.
Dr. Antonello Cannas (00:12:09):
I also mentioned the possibility of using value supplements to assist the shipping goals both energetic, I I described and discussed the use of energetic supplements such as molasses or propane glycol or glycerin, but also the utilization of lipotropic compounds, which can be very useful in animal that especially when the animal have a little bit over condition. So they have eye body fat reserves. Often they have also eye fat liver with eye concentration of fat over a combination of fat in the liver. So I, I described the advantages we're using choline, but also a little bit on be metin and other compounds that can have a positive effect in terms of liver function in terms of restoring the energy balance of the animal in appropriate way, giving the possibility of the to the animal to, to use the, the fat, the body fat mobilize in a efficient way.
Dr. Antonello Cannas (00:13:21):
So in a way to limit the negative effects of the negative of the energy negative energy balance. Then I gave some suggestion on how to prepare a diet during pregnancy, especially late pregnancy in terms of starch concentration in terms of having concentration, in terms of protein concentration, which a bit the requirements are similar between sugar and gold. So with the goal saving probably a lower protein requirements during pregnancy and then I try to suggest some nutritional technique to provide these nutrients in a efficient way, of course, during late pregnancy is very important the quality of the fiber because of the limitation in rumen in rumen in the ability of the animal to eat, caused by the expansion of the utes. So I I stress the importance of having high quality forages. When I mean high quality, I mean, forages with the not too high in the fiber, at the same time with the high degradability of fiber.
Dr. Antonello Cannas (00:14:30):
So forages that lean don't have a, a, a too strong feeling effect. Then of course, you have alternative such as of chop the forages, which can also help. So it's important also to provide energy in adequate amount. But all these feeding techniques require proper organizational of the flock because the requirements in late pregnancy can be very high in mid pregnancy. They are less high. Also, the requirements changes a lot of, depending if anymore, of a singles, twins or triplets. So it's very important to organize the flock by group by even homogeneous group. One, the technique that is becoming very useful, and this is the the use of a graphic early pregnancy dictation, which can allow to only to see if the animals are pregnant, but also to estimate the number of fetuses. So it's very important to organize the fo in groups with homogeneous distance from lambing or kidney.
Dr. Antonello Cannas (00:15:42):
And also in terms of number of fetuses. In a way we can provide appropriate amounts of forages and concentrates. Also, we can provide supplements when needed to the proper with with the, with the group having the highest requirements. So let's say if I have a IU use with single lambs, maybe certain supplements are not necessary when they have twins, they're much more important. We have carried out last, I didn't mention this in a presentation, but because the presentation was given in November, but after that, we carried out a trial on Sian ship. We observe, for example, that Rumen Protical line was very effective on use, having twins, but was not useful for use, having singles. So it's important to allocate the supplements, the proper group in the proper time. But this requires knowing the stage of the pregnancy, the number of fetuses that now it's possible to do it with the many, there are many graphic equipment which allowed this.
Dr. Antonello Cannas (00:16:56):
So it became a kind of a common technique to assess the stage of pregnancy and the number of fetuses. So it's possible to use in a proper way to, to balance the diet properly and use supplements when necessary in a more, in a precise way not to avoiding over utilization or under utilization, depending on the group. Then I moved to rotation, and then I presented some of the optimal fiber or maximum fiber concentration. I believe should be used. This depends on the body sides of the animal, depends on the milk production, depends on the quality of the, the fiber. Of course again, during a a rotation, there is the same problem of pregnancy. We need to have animal with a fairly homogeneous production level if we wanted to allocate appropriate supplement in appropriate way. The supplements we wanted to, to, to give appropriate amounts of forages.
Dr. Antonello Cannas (00:18:06):
So if you want to balance correctly the diet, one aspect I stress is that the, she been much less selected for milk production, both dairy and meat. She, so if they go in a negative energy balance too high negative energy balance, they tend to limit milk production instead of the losing a lot of body reserves as the cow do instead. So we have to be careful managing the diet in a rotation because the, the animal otherwise respond drastically reducing in production. This is a less, is a problem less evident, an aspect less evident in the regards, especially in specialized degos, which have been selected for milk production as dairy cows. So they tend to use energy reserves even when they are at risk of ketosis. Of course, it's a problem in dairy, in goats that have been less isolated for milk production, let's say indigenous goats or, or double purpose goats, which are more similar to sheep.
Dr. Antonello Cannas (00:19:12):
So they tended to defend themselves in front of a negative energy balance, simply radio in milk production, which is a problem in the, in dairy animal, but also in meat animal because if the u reduces or the goat or reduces milk production in relaxation, the Lambo, the kids will grow much more slowly, and the meat production performance of the farmer will be drastically reduced it. So then after this, I, I I focus on some of the problem of the on, on the, yeah, on the fat, that the sub negative energy balance and subclinical ketosis can induce immunosuppression. So increase the diseases, especially infected diseases in the animal. This happens about during pregnancy, during lactation. So another side effect of the negative energy balance is this is quite bad negative effect. And then at the end of this, I gave some indication on how to prepare the diet for lactating or lactating sheep in terms of diet particle size, of course, concentration of starch, concentration of protein, and how to assess the protein status odin, or by using milk curia OIA as an indicator of the protein status status.
Dr. Antonello Cannas (00:20:48):
So overall, my idea was to highlight the importance of appropriate nutrition in shipping goals. This piece has been often overlooked, underlooked, excuse me thinking that the development production reality, a go that is producing five kilograms of milk per day, which is not a rare situation, it is actually quite common as the same requirement per kilogram of body weight of a daily cow that is producing 60 kilo of milk per day. So we should stress the fat does more ruminants are small because they are more even more challenging than larger ruminants. This was the overall goal of my talk beside the technical information I, I tried to provide.
Scott Sorrell (00:21:39):
Yeah, that, that was one thing I was gonna touch on is that you made it quite evident early on, is that sheep and goats are not cattle. And I'm kind of curious, do, do people tend to try to treat them or feed them like cattle? And I think you kind
Dr. Antonello Cannas (00:21:56):
Yeah. The people tend to feed them like, like cattle, but like low producing cattle. Yeah. So not only they think they, they use the same reference. They, they consider ship and goats as cattle, but as a low producing cattle, this is a big mistake because both during pregnancy, during every lactation ship and goats even meet ship meet goats are highly producing animals. So they need to have the same attention we give to high producing the cattle or high producing beef cattle. So there are two mistakes, not only one I think the second is even worse. So the underestimation of the requirements of the animal, of the challenges they have of the metabolic and digestive problem they have when they are under fed and of the limitation of using simple diets in complex animals. Okay. Yeah. Or simple approach in, in highly producing animals.
Scott Sorrell (00:22:57):
Yeah. So while we're talking about differences between cattle and, and, and small ruminants, I'm gonna ask Izabelle, is there differences between goats and sheep? And, and can you kind of talk a little bit about those?
Dr. Izabelle Auxiliadora (00:23:09):
Yeah, sure. I just want to follow up what Antonella was saying. This misperception, perhaps it's also created because of the adaptability of those animals. If you get a goat, it's a very adaptable animal. It can handle really well in harsh conditions. And then I think it creates this idea that they can need whatever they had available. Or even when somebody wants to make a point, there are some photos from north Africa that the goats are on the top of the tree, like they can search for feed, whatever. So I think this misperception is also related to this in terms of I think one of antonello highlight that on his talk in terms of difference of goats and and ship, especially on lactating animals, is related to the main challenges. If you look at ship, the main challenge would be before lambing, and then at the beginning of the lactation is not as much as we can have in goats.
Dr. Izabelle Auxiliadora (00:24:25):
That's gonna be the whole transition period, right? So before kidding and after so fresh goats will challenge, you'll be challenged quite a bit, and it's related with because they produce a lot of milk, just we can have like a comparison with a high producing cows. And I think this is one of the main differences. And there are so many similarities, like the selection, they're very selective animals, and sometimes goats can be even more selective than some ship breeds. And it makes it challenging on feeding management, right? So you need to treat and look in a different perspective than what we're trained to deal with cows, cattle in general. So how we gonna deal with particle size and so on. I also passage rate, so what's the transit of the, the Fed through the digestive tract? It's high in both. And in fact, we had some studies around 2015 early 2010 that was showing that the passage rate of even a growing animals, because they eat a lot it's similar to the passage rate of high producing cuts. So just to point outside,
Dr. Antonello Cannas (00:25:58):
Which means lower digestibility of fiber, when the fiber is of low quality, it is highlights the importance of having high quality fiber.
Dr. Izabelle Auxiliadora (00:26:09):
Yeah. Yeah. And also brings another we need to be attentive what's going on in the large intestines because it's gonna escape more from rumen. And then we need to look at the large intestines and some fermentation, possible fermentation in there.
Jessica Waltemyer (00:26:32):
We with both Antonella and Izabelle, where there is this misconception that goats will eat anything. They can survive on anything. And may that be true with certain production stage points of animals, not particularly in, you know, late gestation and early lactation animals where they're gonna be the most prone to those metabolic issues and they'll eat it. But are they really getting what they need to maintain those fetus viability as well as the active level of those lambs or kids after birth? And that they'll be able to take off and be very strong in their immune systems and also continue to thrive in their average daily gains. So we'd see lower birth rates, higher mortality, because they weren't getting the true nutrition they needed at that late pre or that late gestation and then early lactation stage.
Dr. Izabelle Auxiliadora (00:27:29):
Yeah. So they can handle, right, but they can survive, but we are not getting the best from them. The hope attention. Yeah.
Jessica Waltemyer (00:27:37):
Yeah. And I try to encourage my producers to keep accurate records so that they can gauge that maybe they made a small change in their management system, whether it be nutrition, housing or environment, and seeing those changes in those live birth weights and those average daily gains, and then ultimately their market weights, or potentially, if we're talking about dairy animals, you know, weighing the amount of milk they're giving, metering, the amount of milk they're giving, working with a company to help them do nutrient analysis and on those samples so that they can further better their production, not just status quo, but actually improve their operation and improve their profitability.
Dr. Antonello Cannas (00:28:22):
Yes, taking data is very important. I think now in our production system, there is a, a lot of attention on this. There are values companies producing software to collect data. There are practitioners and professionals that are specializing on this, on managing the data of the farmers. This is particularly important in part because there was not traditional coating data from shipping goats farm, in part because the flocks are becoming bigger and bigger compared to the past. So it is while in the past, the farmer was able to almost know animal by animal. Now it's not possible. Even in United States, you have now some very big dish farm, I think daughter Gastone, farm Galton farming it, Italy has still are very active. They have how many animals they have now 2000 ship. They ship 2000 goat when I visited. But maybe something has changed. Yeah,
Jessica Waltemyer (00:29:21):
It's around that size as same at, at that point, yes.
Dr. Antonello Cannas (00:29:24):
And other dairy sheep farms have been built the last decade in the us of large size. So but this is a common pattern everywhere. We are reducing the number of farms, but we are leaving farms bigger and bigger. So the, the data correlation is essential to keep under control the performances of the animal, to be able to sell it to the best animals, to be able to, to, to, to find immediately any, any problem to bought nutritional management type of problems, but also metabolic problems. For example, milk recording is becoming more common. Milk recording with automatic milk recorders because if you know milk production, you can do a proper rotation. You can have alerts about any possible problem. They, the animals immediately the same aspect, the same importance. We see they can.
Dr. Izabelle Auxiliadora (00:30:27):
We can start the digression because it's important to to keep records. But also I think what is a burden, and I think it's across species, is what to do with the amount of data that we are generating. And that's something that us as professionals dealing the, in that industry is how we can generate better reports to help the producers to take decisions. So can be really good decision making tools, you know?
Dr. Antonello Cannas (00:30:59):
Yes. So very important, causing The digression
Dr. Izabelle Auxiliadora (00:31:00):
No, it's, I think it's very important. Yeah,
Jessica Waltemyer (00:31:04):
Looking from somebody that works with all ranges of production sizes from somebody that has, you know, two to three goats or sheep for their own use, versus somebody that has, you know, a thousand sheep that are grazing solar arrays all over New York state. It's definitely what it works for you. And any data is better than no data. So trying to get my convince my producers that just writing down the simplest input such as the ram use crossed on, which use at that time for that breeding season, what the offspring numbers were. Was it a 200% crop? Was it 150% crop? What was our mortality and those effects at the end of gestation? And then again, tracking those lambs and seeing what the price was or what the weight were on those lambs. Some of my producers don't have scales, you know, some are not gonna mix their own rations. Some are gonna buy rations that they were told to buy. So you gotta work with the individual to decide what works well for them, because if it's not simple or not easy for them, they're not gonna do it. So I think that the adaptability of any data is, or the idea of any data is better than no data, at least from a production and management standpoint.
Dr. Izabelle Auxiliadora (00:32:27):
I agree.
Dr. Antonello Cannas (00:32:28):
Yes, yes, totally agree. The same time, there are some automatic equipments that call it data like the MP parlor with automatic measurement. So it's very important to interpret this data in a way that the farmer can really use them. Otherwise, they're just piles of data that they're not going to use. Well, we are facing similar problems that other sector face probably some time ago, or they're still facing now. The ability to, to, to, to, to summarize the data in an efficient way in a way the farmers can use them. And then not only the farmers, the nutritionists, the veterinarians, all the professionals that go in a farm need to have the data of the farm to, to be able to give the proper suggestions.
Jessica Waltemyer (00:33:19):
So the rumen protected choline that you were referring to in what format do you give those to the sheep and goats? So would that be something that will be offered in the total mixed ration as either in the green concentrate pellet or,
Dr. Antonello Cannas (00:33:35):
Well, in normal condition, it would be be added in the diet in a total mixed rational in a pal. But in our case, we supplemented individually because we wanted to know exactly the individual amount it, and not only the average amount of the flock. So we supplemented individually with a spoon simply, but this is because we wanted to be sure they were eating. Actually, we use it as spoon at the beginning, but then we moved that we use it another system, but it doesn't matter in a farm, of course, I wouldn't do that in, in experimental setting. I need to know the exact amount eaten by each animal. So if you mix in the diet and total mix r you may have some animal that eat a little bit more, some animal that eat a little bit less, you don't really know. So in our case, we need to know that. But in normal condition, you supplement as any other supplement in the ration or in the concentrate or indoor, when the animal come back from grazing. This is depends on the specific condition.
Jessica Waltemyer (00:34:47):
So that was my question. For those that are, are mostly grazing operation that aren't off offering any type of grain supplementation, is it something that could be added in the mineral or would it be solubilized and then given that as a drench to make sure each animal gets an individual dose?
Dr. Antonello Cannas (00:35:05):
No, no, no. You don't need to use a drench. You, you just put in the diet. You can ask the company that produce. There are companies that put it in Pelles. There are companies that put in meal mixes. So no, no, you shouldn't drench it. It's too much work. Unless you have two, three animals, as you said, then you can drench. But this is not the case of a production farm.
Jessica Waltemyer (00:35:30):
Great.
Scott Sorrell (00:35:32):
Yeah, I'd recommend probably putting that in the mineral if, if you don't have a total mixed rotation. Yeah.
Dr. Antonello Cannas (00:35:38):
Also, yeah.
Dr. Izabelle Auxiliadora (00:35:42):
I also have a question, Ella, I did not want to interrupt you. I completely get the importance of grouping, right? But it's hard to convince, and sometimes they don't have their the means to do that. The facility does not facilitate. What is the typical number of groups that you're using in Sardinia, in a, in a typical farm?
Dr. Antonello Cannas (00:36:05):
Well, there's not a typical number because also in Sardinia, the size of the farm, the organization, it's quite diverse. We have a more than 10,000 dairy ship farms. So you can mainly use past the majority. Some use total mixed Russian, mainly use total mixed Russian and pasta. So the groups they make can be very different. Usually water they try to do is to have at least a separation of the ship or the goats that are close to partion and identification of those that have twins or triplets. In the case of goats, often the majority of goats have twos or triplets in reality. So let's say that in case of the goat, you need to, if you want to use a supplement, you need to supplement all the goats that are late in pregnancy. In the case of ship, it depends on the breed.
Dr. Antonello Cannas (00:37:02):
The breed we have is not so prolific. So for us is very important to separate mother with singles and other, with twins. Other breeds are much more prolific, so they are more in the case, more similar to the situation I described before goats. So let's say I meet at minimum two groups twins and singles, and possibly a separation by distance of lambing. Partion. Okay. But as I said, it depends a lot on the farm. Small farms tended to have a, a single group. They, they try to almost do, do an individual feeding, given some supplement to the animals. They feel they need more. Some farms use beta doBut rate as a marker. So they try to, to focus on the animal with more stressed, but the majority cannot do such a complex things. Also, the measurements of beta doBut rate is quite expensive. So usually it's done only as an emergency measurement to aim that will really show some symptoms of or problems. So let's say these are the minimum group this doesn't mean that everybody does, does this. The, there are many that don't do any pregnancy dictations. They, so they don't have information about the status of the animals, but those that have veterinarian or a professional that assess their, their pregnancy status, tend them to use this information to, to have a proper nutrition day.
Dr. Izabelle Auxiliadora (00:38:46):
That's good. So it, it makes me feel better because back in Brazil, so my previous life it was so hard. So people were not dealing with grouping and very for doing that. And just going to the, the start, the study that you carried out after your presentation, you mentioned that choline was good for twin.
Dr. Antonello Cannas (00:39:16):
Yes. The animal they ship with the single produced that were not affected in the milk production or even on the intake byrum choline. I will send this information to Balam because I've not shared yet. But it was an experiment I decided to do by myself. So it is not sponsored by, by Balkan or any other company. The other interesting aspect is that the animal with pl choline tended to eat less concentrates, seems that they were able to probably to use they had some refusals in the concentrates. I dunno if I've been really mentioned by any other experiment. This, my, our report is was that since the, they were more efficient due to utilization of body fat reserves. They didn't need with so much concentration as the other group. But these are, is an early, we're still have in front of me the report done by me.
Dr. Antonello Cannas (00:40:18):
They pitched this student that is working on that. So still preliminary, but it was quite, I was a bit surprised by the stent of the reserve, especially in terms of concentrate intake. Yeah, I was expecting more an effect on milk production as reported already for dairy cows. Not an effect on intake in terms of concentrate intake. But I would like to ask you a question, Isabel. Now so what is your feeling in term of interaction between transition nutrition, all the stress associated to the nutrition during transition and eat stress? You often, you, you university in Brazil, I went there, it was kind of hot, and you have a climate that is very hot. And you mean, so what are the, your the problem, the problems you observe and
Dr. Izabelle Auxiliadora (00:41:19):
Yeah, so of course, especially where where you visit, it was super hot. So heat stress, it, it's an issue in Brazil, the majority of part where we have goats and chip in Brazil, a very hot climate. So it's the part of Brazil that we can consider like tropical weather, right? So and I, I must tell you that we challenge the animals quite a bit because very few farms are really addressing it, like adjusting the nutrition to help the animals to cope with the, the heat stress. I think it's nowadays especially more like getting the ride the same flow, that what is going on with cows that then producers, I think, okay, we can do a better job, especially for the milk animals, right? So we can not see a drop in production or in the milk that I'm commercializing because I'm helping the animals there. But we, to tell you the truth, what is quite frustrating, right? But we don't see the producers dealing a lot. They go to our ship producers dealing a lot with that,
Jessica Waltemyer (00:42:43):
Okay? And most of our lambs are lambing in this area is gonna be done in the spring due to seasonal breeders, right? They're gonna breed in the fall and they're gonna lamb in the spring. So most of those young lambs are gonna be born when it is either cold, if they're pushing to lamb in January or February in this area, or if they're gonna be born whenever coccidia is at high, which is in those really temperate moist time of the year, which is our march april time. And so the stress on the lambs as well for the, the immediate of the heat and the exposure to a high level of either internal parasites or the some of the other things that we would deal with in that springtime, because everything likes to grow when it's warm and wet. And so I think that setting up, again, the use for success nutritionally so that they can provide good immunity to those lambs so that they have a much better and, and robust start to their lives.
Jessica Waltemyer (00:43:49):
And then if they're gonna produce those lambs into market animals, you need to invest in them early on so that you can have the, the best outcome at the end. So I agree with the heat stress. We don't always lamb 'em in the summertime, which I do say that here at Cornell. We, we do lamb in May, June, right now we're lambing as I speak,
Jessica Waltemyer (00:44:44):
And so being conscientious to we, having them shorn so that they can adjust to those heat changes, if you're dealing with wool sheep, of course, and knowing that your breed is prone to becoming larger in size, greater litter size, and that adaptability. So being really aware of what breed you're going to have and knowing what that outcome could be. So as Antonio said, that we don't always ultrasound, right, because it's a cost. There's also sometimes a lack of veterinarians that have a, are well addressed in ultrasounding for the number of fetuses. I I find that we can find veterinarians that can diagnose pregnancy, but they're not gonna count the fetuses. Or maybe there was an unknown breeding date, which makes it more difficult to narrow that window of when you need to ultrasound. But knowing that you're picking a prolific breed such as the Cornell Block has fin and in my 14 year career here at Cornell, we've had upwards to six lambs at a time from one U. So it's large litters. We know they're gonna have large litters. And so keeping a really close eye on those in particular animals, whether it be by age breed stage of life, and my number of litters they've had in the past, and their average is gonna help me pro prep for their next lambing and hopefully their next success.
Dr. Antonello Cannas (00:46:17):
Yes Jessica, I did my masters and my PhD at Cornell and in the third floor office number 3, 2, 3. But then I use it for my master thesis door set and also fin and crosses. And they are extremely prolific. Yes. At the same time, they have an advantage. They're big. They tend to be more able to manage, let's say, to have a high intake of fors. I don't know if you, what is the, your opinion in terms of frequency of problems during transition stage in the flock? You have monitor in your state in general. They have a breed that are bigger but also prolific. So it's a combination of two factors.
Jessica Waltemyer (00:47:06):
So most of the time when we see a problem with the, I'll refer to the thin dorsett crosses, 'cause those are still a pretty prevalent cross in our clock here at Cornell is I tend to see problems in the older animals. So if I know that they are older, I tend to divide as, as you said before, divide them off and, and take better attention to their intake. And as far as their testing of their bro ketosis on those animals in late gestation. And then also body condition score. So knowing that there are animals that are coming in potentially over conditioned, I know that they're potentially gonna have metabolic issues at that late gestation. So my goals and, and my management plan is to sort those animals, maybe not by number of fetuses but body condition score and more from a nutrient management standpoint, because I just know they're gonna potentially have an issue in late gestation.
Dr. Antonello Cannas (00:48:05):
Interesting. Yes.
Dr. Izabelle Auxiliadora (00:48:07):
Talking about body condition score, I think it's also interesting. Scott asked me late earlier about difference between goat and ship. Generally we adapt the body condition score rate from shift to goat, but does not work really well because the way the fat deposition goes is, is done. So it's mainly on the abdominal cavity. So we are not really able for palpation to see what is it? And, and I think this is, it's a hard research to do because we need to really monitor body composition and and do all the scorings and get the full range, right? But I think that's a very needed adjustment that we need to do. And I think you, you face something like that in sda, right? Anton? The SDA breed,
Dr. Antonello Cannas (00:49:06):
Well, the connection score was developed on in England Mm-Hmm.
Dr. Antonello Cannas (00:50:12):
Dairy ship, sorry, than to Mediterranean dairy ship. Meran ship accumulate a lot of fat visceral level in the abdominal cavity because they needed to have less fat under the skin to be able to thermoregulate in a better way. So the same problem Isabel was mentioning for dego, we have medi values, Mediterranean ship breeds even more for those that have a fat tail, which is have a total different way to accumulate the fat in the body. So yeah, it would be necessary to, to, to adapt to the body condition score system, especially the target reference values to the main types of breeds we have in the world and species and breeds. This has been done for some breeds. The most important probably, but not for many others.
Dr. Izabelle Auxiliadora (00:51:06):
And what's your target for leming? It's around 2.53.
Dr. Antonello Cannas (00:51:13):
We, at Leming, we try to have around three, but if you follow the classic, the reference value, for example, the French system, they suggest 3.5 in our ship, 3.5 if you DeLaughter the animal we did that used called 3.5, then use lot the animal, you will find a percentage of fat, which is equivalent to the French breed when the French breed is four, 4.5. So there is a big difference in body fat accumulation in not in the total percentage, but in the location. Mm-Hmm.
Jessica Waltemyer (00:52:12):
And janella. But the one challenge that I see is that we, most producers do not have one pure breed, right? We are using some type of cross-breeding program in order to increase our lambing size, increase our carcass yield, increase our milk production. And so each breed has its own little standard, but then when you cross them, what is your standard for what works? So I like to use the term, I work with a lot of undergraduate students, graduate students, and I like to use the, the phrase you cannot know abnormal if you do not know normal and meaning normal in the reference of what is normal for your animals. You know, my sheep may not look like your sheep because I manage them differently, but that's normal for my sheep and it works well for me. And so just knowing what works for you and then making small tweaks and talking to professionals to try to in increase your, your management practices or production practices. But again, your normal may not be my normal or what your 3.5 may be, might be my three. And so that's another thing I I try to explain to students is if you are body conditioning scoring in a large scale, make sure it's the same person. Because if you have two or three people,
Dr. Antonello Cannas (00:53:43):
But these con body conditions, core assessment in ship and goats is not as easy as in cattle. It requires more manual work, especially in ship where the wool hides the overall fatness of the animal. It also is less accurate in general, if you probably 'cause of the size, because you are, you need to dictate the small differences that in a cow are much more evident, especially in a all stain, which has a large structure, many bonds that comes outside. So it's easier to, to assess a correctly the body condition score in ship and goes, only you have the problem of internal abdominal cavity accumulation of factor, but you have to work on a much smaller differences. So it's the, the hand is the same for the cows and for ship and goats, but the, the measurement you have to do with your hands of your is different.
Dr. Antonello Cannas (00:54:40):
So it is more challenging. Mm-Hmm. We're trying to, to find alternative ways like using vision photographs, pictures, or using a echo graphic measurements. But it's not easy. It is also costly. And so, so far we are stuck on body conditions score. We, what we try to do is to teach to the professionals, to the farmers that they have to be careful in the assessment. So they have to take, consider the body condition score as a indicator. Ma not, but not as the only indicator. Okay? Because these prone to errors is very subjective. So they need to, to, to do other controls. They need to see the thesis, they need to see how much the animal are really eating. If they are refusing feed possibly if they can, they need to check for pregnancy. So body condition score is not as accurate as in cows is also. So also there's much more variability, as you said, in breeds
Jessica Waltemyer (00:56:00):
For sure.
Scott Sorrell (00:56:01):
Yeah. So I don't know if you guys notice, but the lights just flickered. That means it is last call. So
Speaker 5 (00:57:06):
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Jessica Waltemyer (00:57:29):
Your individual operation and your individual limitations. So limitations not being potentially a negative thing, but just knowing what you do well and continuing to do it well, and don't make huge changes so that way you can continue to monitor and see those positive outcomes from your, your changes that you're doing for your production management. So finding out what you do well, knowing your animals well, and continuing to do that and tweak it just enough to continue to be positive in your growth.
Scott Sorrell (00:58:03):
Yeah, great comments, Izabelle.
Dr. Izabelle Auxiliadora (00:58:07):
Yeah, so I would sign Jessica, I agree. I think it's really understanding of this, but also understanding the challenge of each stage, right? So what are the challenge when you are dealing with pregnant I or dose when, what are the challenge when the animals start reducing milk? And also you need to pay attention to the kids and lambs that are out there and how, because they're the ones that gonna be producing milk soon. So I think it's really understanding the challenge, especially the nutritional challenge that each face faces and try to address that. We had so many available tools nowadays that can accommodate and address the issues that we can see. And sometimes some small changes or inclusions of some think in the diet or the way you manage the animals, the feeding management can make a huge difference, you know, and how we can get what works in there. I think that's a, a good idea. Be attentive at what is out there that I can use to improve my overall productivity.
Scott Sorrell (00:59:28):
Hmm. Thank you Isabel? Antonio?
Dr. Antonello Cannas (00:59:31):
Overall, I would like to say that people should always remember that ship and go to production is a complex business. It requires the same level of attention, the same level of even of education possibly that we tended to have in the dairy cow sector. So, or in the sector, in the advanced sector, don't under look these species. Try to do your best to, to use a modern feeding techniques, which doesn't mean to have a total mixed ration, but even on Mond past to try to implement what we know about the proper pastoral management or we know about the appropriate ways to, to feed these animals. So they are not they shouldn't be underlooked. We need to study, we need to work, we need to do research. So we need as a professionals to, to convince people that they need to, to focus on these animals as much as other people do for other species. Yeah, that's my overall.
Scott Sorrell (01:00:42):
Yep. Well said. Well, I wanna thank the panel tonight for a great discussion. I want to thank you for your insights. This has been a fun one. I've learned a lot. I hope our audience has learned a lot as well. So I want to thank you very much. I also want to thank our loyal listeners for coming along with us. Once again, I hope you learned something. I hope you had some fun. We hope to see you next time here at Real Science Exchange, where it's always happy hour and you're always among friends.
Speaker 5 (01:01:06):
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