This episode was recorded in Reno, Nevada, during the 2025 Western Dairy Management Conference. The panel is reviewing a presentation given by Dr. Rick Grant, who was unable to be on the podcast.
This episode was recorded in Reno, Nevada, during the 2025 Western Dairy Management Conference. The panel is reviewing a presentation given by Dr. Rick Grant, who was unable to be on the podcast.
The presentation was based on the idea that crowding is a subclinical presence. If you manage it with people and resources, a dairy can do very well. But if something happens in that crowded situation, like a disease or heat stress, it can tip performance over the edge. Evaluating time budgets for cows can allow for the identification of places to improve. Beds are vitally important. If a cow doesn’t have a bed due to crowding then she’s not lying down, chewing her cud, which is what allows her to be as efficient as possible. (3:19)
Jason thinks about time budgets as a tool for managing stress. Jim agrees and notes that crowding is part of every cow’s day, but we can manage to minimize that time in most instances. Jason and Jim talk about some of their approaches to evaluating crowding when they work with a dairy, and where pain points are often located. (5:57)
Jason liked Dr. Grant’s takeaway message that the cow doesn’t necessarily care she’s overcrowded as long as she has a bed she doesn’t have to fight for and room at the feed bunk she doesn’t have to fight for. He describes a very successful client who is overcrowded, but everything else is managed well. All other stressors have been removed, so the only stressor remaining is the overcrowding. But when additional stressors compound crowding, then dairies experience issues. He adds there is a huge opportunity for error when feeding to slick bunks in an overcrowding situation. (16:15)
Jim talks about different measures of efficiency. Is it milk per cow, milk per free stall, milk per parlor stall, or milk per pen? He thinks the real answer is “it depends,” and the answer might be different for each dairy. Jason notes that the bank wants to see assets on a balance sheet, and the cows are the assets. (19:24)
The group discusses geographical differences in overcrowding. Jim’s observations show crowding increases as one moves east in the US. Tom agrees and notes 20-30% of the available stalls are in his part of the world. Overcrowded cows eat faster, and this impacts rumen efficiency, probably leading to lower de novo fatty acid synthesis and overall lower components. The panel talks about whether or not there is such a thing as an “overcrowding ration.”(20:59)
The panel relays some real-world examples of crowding where dairies would cull cows to decrease milk production, but production would remain the same because the cows were now less crowded. They talk more about other management strategies that need to be on point if a dairy is going to overcrowd. (27:50)
The panel wraps up with their take-home thoughts for dairy producers and nutritionists. Jim and Jason share their contact information with the audience. (38:20)
Scott invites the audience to Bourbon and Brainiacs at ADSA in Louisville - a bourbon tasting with all your favorite professors! Sign up here: https://balchem.com/anh/bourbon/ (45:02)
The paper referenced in this conversation from Dr. Bach can be found here: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022030208711226
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Scott Sorrell (00:09):
Good evening everyone, and welcome to the Real Science Exchange, the pubcast where leading scientists and industry professionals meet over a few drinks to discuss the latest ideas and trends in animal nutrition. Hi, I am Scott Sorrell, gonna be your host here tonight. And my co-host, honey, it's gonna be Dr. Jeff Elliot. Jeff, say hi, Jeff. Hi, Jeff. Yep. Thank you. And Jeff, tell us just real quick, a little bit about yourself.
Dr. Jeff Elliot (00:32):
So, Jeff Elliot, Amarillo, Texas provide tech support for biochem throughout the United States.
Scott Sorrell (00:39):
Yep. And color commentator is Dr. Tom Overton. Tom to see you.
Dr. Tom Overton (00:43):
Yeah, Scott, good to see you. Thanks. Yeah. Thanks for meeting again. You know, Tom Overton Cornell University. I do research teaching extension work there in Gary.
Scott Sorrell (00:49):
Yeah. Perfect. Thanks for joining us again. And we have two special guests Dr. Jim Tulley and Dr. Jason Briley. Thank you guys for joining us. I'm gonna start with you, Jim. I've known you the longest. It's been quite a while. I know you as a tough customer. I tried selling stuff to you for several years, but you've always been fair. So I, I, I appreciate you. Would you mind kind of introducing yourself and tell us a little bit about your new company?
Dr. Jim Tully (01:14):
Jim Tulley. I do dairy nutrition consulting in California. I live in Minnesota. Married into a dairy family became a farmer, but still do consulting. Was presented with an opportunity early this year, late last year to become fully independent allow myself to really answer client's questions with no encumbrance, no bias. It's not the right word. It's really not a bias, but left a company and now do it for myself. So I'm really am working for my clients.
Scott Sorrell (01:57):
Yeah. Good. Thank you for that. And your, your, this young man over here is your partner Jason?
Dr. Jim Tully (02:02):
No, no, no. I'm not gonna let that happen.
Scott Sorrell (02:09):
You obviously know each other very well, then.
Scott Sorrell (02:12):
Jason, tell us a little bit about yourself.
Jason Brixey (02:14):
Yeah, so Jim and I actually used to work for the same company and about a month after he left the company I, I followed and was able to go completely independent. And I've been an independent consultant in the dairy industry for 20 years. And I had 23 years experience as a nutrition consultant. And just excited about the new path that God's laid out for me, to be honest with you. And I'm in the California area Pacific Northwest, pretty heavy. And so traveling, traveling a bunch, but having having a lot of fun. Having a lot of fun doing it.
Scott Sorrell (02:50):
Yeah. Good for you. Rooting for you. Yeah. Thanks. we've got you guys here today. We're going to be reviewing a, or at least start reviewing a presentation that was given by Dr. Rick Grant. He was unable to attend, so we're gonna stand in for him that title of his presentation was, don't Let Overcrowding Wreck Your Ration. And so it's kind of a compelling title. Jim, would you mind kind of walking us into some of the key elements that was discussed during that presentation?
Dr. Jim Tully (03:19):
Yeah, yeah. I can't reiterate the whole presentation, but I've heard Rick talk. I've known Rick for a few years, something that, the way he described it yesterday was, was very helpful for me. Crowding under almost every operation we work with happens at some point. So he's describing it, it's like a subclinical presence. It's always there. You throw enough people at it, enough resources and, and a dairy can do very well, but if something happens to come in a disease, the, the highly pathogenic avian influenza or heat stress, if something else comes in, it's,
Scott Sorrell (04:07):
It's really gonna tip it over and it will of your right. Yes.
Dr. Jim Tully (04:10):
Yes. So that's, I, like I said, I've heard Rick talk and, you know, there's crowding for stalls. What about headlocks and all of those things? But, but I think when my clients hear it that way that you can crowd, but it's, it's a stressor and something else can really tip it over the edge.
Scott Sorrell (04:27):
So generally speaking how do we define overcrowding and and is it different by farm?
Dr. Jim Tully (04:34):
What I'm hearing is beds are vitally important for how Rick is viewing the cow's time budget that a term he came up with with Marine outta Canada, what's their time budget? If they're laying down, chewing her cud, that's really what she wants to do. So if she doesn't have a bed due to crowding, she's probably not doing exactly what she wants to do in, in the 24 hour
Scott Sorrell (05:03):
Period and probably not being as efficient as she can be. Yes. Yeah. Got it. So
Dr. Jeff Elliot (05:07):
Scott, one thing I want to add, 'cause you'd mentioned this and I forgot he had said it. Subclinical overcrowding. And just think about it, all the time we've been in the industry, it was subclinical milk fever, then it was subclinical ketosis. And he brought that up. And I thought it was quite interesting that it may be, there may not, you may not see the effects of it until there's almost like a co-infection, something else happens, and then it, then the issue of that, even slight overcrowding might blow up.
Scott Sorrell (05:41):
But with the other sub clinicals, whether it's subclinical ketosis, subclinical milk fever, there's still a cost to it and you're not seeing it is the same true of over a subclinical overcrowding. There's a cost to it, even though you're not seeing it, even though there's not a big,
Dr. Jim Tully (05:56):
Big stress.
Jason Brixey (05:57):
Well, when you go through the time budget, right? I mean, you go, go back to his earlier work with Pam Kaiser link. And that's part of what I get to do actually on farm a lot, is it's very practical information. Right? And part of what I do on farm is those time budgets and counting stalls. Counting headlocks. I mean, I think about even areas that maybe you wouldn't think of overcrowding. Like we take our animals to the holding pen and the milk barn, they're crowded. It's just part of their daily life. But how long are they staying in there? Right? You know, from the time the very first cow walks in to the very cow walks out, what's that, that timeframe worth? And then we're taking it away from her lying time. At the end of the day, all we're doing is we're trying to manage stress, right? Like that's how I look at it. Big picture.
Dr. Jim Tully (06:50):
Yes. And we're gonna do those things. It's a dairy they have to operate. So it's how fast, how efficient can you get out of that stressful position? Yeah. And how do you do that? I was talking with Rick after the presentation and I said I, I view it as, maybe this'll answer it, or maybe not, Scott. Good people can make a bad facility work. Bad people cannot work in a good facility. And he said, you, you, he, he agreed it's, people get a lot of this done get intensity passion for the cow, wanting to make sure, hey, I have to milk 'em, but I I only want her outta the pen for 45 minutes. Or, we talked a lot about lockups and stuff in that time budget. Okay, we we're gonna lock up cows. Well, come on. Come on guys. We, we know of a former manager and he ran the dairy on the clock, and if he went by a pen and the cows were locked, he'd turn 'em loose. Breeders were not happy. He said, you didn't get your done. I'm turning the cows loose. You have to figure out a way to get your job done. The cows need to loose. So, so people can overcome some of that. Yeah.
Jason Brixey (08:08):
Well, and it's the awareness. I mean, I'm into a fairly new market in the last couple years, and I've, I keep running across the, the, the same, the same issue. And a lot of folks don't even know like how crowded they are or, you know, or specifically, I'm crowded in the wrong area. I'm, I, you know, I shouldn't be, I should be overcrowding my fresh cows. And I have breeding pins and overcrowding the locals, but they haven't even thought through that process yet. So it's a, a matter of like bringing it to the attention. Okay, here it is. Here's the, here's the stressor. Right Now, what can we do about the limbing factor in a lot of cases is the facility itself. Like what can, and what can we not do with what you have?
Dr. Jim Tully (08:51):
Yeah. See Jason, thanks. 'cause You asked what can they do? Facilities will always win. I, I've just, my observations are back to the people. But eventually the facility wins. That becomes a big impact. And crowd up the late pen. Don't do the, oh, every pen's 10% over. Okay, don't do that. Get 'em out of the fresh pen. Be under in there and 12% elsewhere. And then if you're holding pen will hold it 20% in that low dry off tail end pen is a, a tolerable spot to do it.
Jason Brixey (09:30):
Well, and, and I just keep thinking about like the Southwest or the West where we, you know, heat abatement is a huge topic all the time. Every is every year. And then this time of year, what do we see? Right? We see the, the waves of dry cows, fresh cows come through, and then it evaporates. There's, there's not this consistent, you know, fresh cow number every single month. So it's preparing for those waves, right? It's like, you know, the facility is designed for X amount of freshening, right? But we weren't designed for the, our reproductive failure in August and September that caused, you know, a huge, a huge wave nine months later. So
Dr. Jim Tully (10:10):
Yeah. Oh, they have to be in the, the closeup pen for three weeks. They have to be there. Maybe this time you, you cut it to 18 and that's a big relief on that. And all the fresh pen, they're always there. 14 days have to be in there. 14 days. Well, maybe right now it's 11 days.
Jason Brixey (10:27):
Well, yeah. Coming full circle. I mean, it, it's, we're trying to manage stress, right? So we're always dealing with the lesser two evils. You know, what is this stress worse than this stress?
Scott Sorrell (10:37):
Yeah. Lemme summarize real quick. What I think I'm hearing. You guys can correct me if I'm wrong, but you guys do these time cards, you're identifying maybe where there's some problems. Your next step is then what a conversation with the dairy farmer or the herdsman. And that's where you identify and lay out and then work with them to put a plan together. And, and, and maybe saying, Hey, here's something that might be coming down the road. Here's a problem and here's some solutions. And you talk through it. Yeah. The
Dr. Jim Tully (11:02):
Options you discuss options.
Scott Sorrell (11:12):
The economics of feeding ReaShure Precision Release Choline. ReaShure is fed during the transition period. And because it's fed for such a short period of time, it costs just $15 per cow. And yet the benefits will continue to generate income throughout the year. Cows fed reassure produce five pounds more colostrum, which pays for your reassure investment on the very first day of lactation cows. Fed reassure also produce five pounds more milk per day every day. That means after the first day, every day is payday invest and reassure during the transition period and recoup your investment on the very first day of lactation. After that, you got it. payday.
Jason Brixey (12:01):
Now Rick's got some numbers for us to play with. 'cause For first 15 years it was, you know, my visits were, I, you know, we gotta do a better job with freestyle maintenance. You know, Cal comfort, Cal Comfort Cal comfort. And people got kind of sick at listening to it. 'cause They're like, well, you have to. Is it gonna pay? Is my extra labor and effort gonna pay off? And and now we actually have those numbers to say, yes, it's worth hypothetically X, Y, Z because more lying time, more rumination, more milk fat, et cetera, et cetera. So we have that data. Now,
Dr. Tom Overton (12:32):
I think you guys make a great point, right? Both Jim and Jason, I mean, again, how you talk with your, your clients, your farms about, you know, how do I, how do I best manage my facilities that I have? You know, and if it means giving up a little bit of time in certain pens, you know, to, to keep the stocking density, you know, appropriate, you know, that all makes a lot of sense. Right? And so, you know, and so that means it's gonna be dynamic, right? And I also wonder, Scott, back to the overcrowding thing in general, right? I mean, you know, we're talking about resting time and things like that and bed availability. And maybe that's an established lactation thing. I always, I kind of veer toward feed bunk space for transition cows, right? And look at it more that way. I mean, yes, I gotta have a bed, but, you know, boy, those are animals who really want to have access to, to feed and as much as they want and whenever they want it. And because I think we all know we get them off to a better start than everything else gets gets easier.
Dr. Jeff Elliot (13:26):
So I wanna go back to something Jason said. You said you've been in a new market Yeah. You last night. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Fancy pants. Okay. So you said you're in a new marketplace. Is the perception of overcrowding different between the dairymen in one area versus the other?
Jason Brixey (13:47):
Absolutely. Yes, it is. Yep. It's something that's just, that's just what we do. That's what we do here.
Scott Sorrell (13:53):
And how'd that happen?
Jason Brixey (13:55):
How'd it happen?
Scott Sorrell (13:56):
Yeah. I mean, just it sounds like it's almost cultural.
Jason Brixey (13:59):
Well, yeah. Yeah. I think so. And I just had this thought that we almost need another podcast and it should be titled How Do We Dairy in nine, in 2025 in a 1965 facility, right? How do you, how do you take today's what we know today, right? Mm-Hmm
Dr. Jeff Elliot (14:29):
So if that habit becomes normal in that area, are they not aware of the implications of that overcrowding?
Jason Brixey (14:36):
Just recently I, I did have a client that was in the same scenario and we have convinced him, Hey, look, I I think you need to go from three times a day milking back to two times a day milking. It's like, whoa, what? Like, that goes against everything that, you know, we, we ever thought about, you know, economics and et cetera, et cetera. And, and again, it's like the stress that we have on this herd is so great that, you know, we, we can't make the the diet dense enough. We can't get enough intake into 'em. They're lying down for nine hours a day, barely barely getting the job done. The the barn is sometimes on time, sometimes not on time. We went to two x and we're up two and a half pounds of milk. Hmm. And he's like, man, I think I'm making like a dollar and a half or a hundred weight just right off the bat
Dr. Jim Tully (15:28):
Because three, three x isn't a stress, but if it's, if it's un everything's underpinned with stuff and you can't get the work done. Yeah. Exactly's
Jason Brixey (15:39):
The rubber bands right?
Dr. Jim Tully (15:40):
It, it I'm done. She just, they'll, cows will try to the very end, but eventually they'll, they can't lie. They're just gonna say, yeah, I'm done. You gave me all the resources, this is what you get.
Scott Sorrell (15:52):
You know, kind of back to, to, to, to Jeff's question, do they know, well, maybe not, right? Because it's subclinical back to the, back to the whole subclinical conversation we had. It's, it's not obvious, right? Because it's happening in such little increments. So Yeah. Maybe kinda like the proverbial frog in the warm bot warm bath gradually turn up the heat Yeah. Doesn't
Dr. Jim Tully (16:12):
Know it's getting cooked.
Scott Sorrell (16:13):
Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
Jason Brixey (16:15):
I, I liked what Rick Grant said at the very end, you know, the, the cow doesn't really care that she's overcrowded. All she cares about is do I have a bed that I don't have to fight for? And do I have room at the feed bunk I don't have to fight for As long as those things are available to me, I could care less.
Dr. Jim Tully (16:35):
That's, that's right. That, that's a good takeaway from that. And, and keep that in mind. And very often we find they don't have the bed type stuff. And that's gonna be a stress. Is is it kind of back to one of your early points, Scott? What's, what's the impact of that? Well, it's negative
Scott Sorrell (17:31):
Yeah. That's kind of a nice segue. So how does overcrowding ration can you give us some examples of that?
Jason Brixey (17:39):
Lemme get this thought out for a second back to, because I've heard you coin this a lot. Like there's, there's just rules, right? And if you break the rules, there's consequences. And I think you just, as long as you know that, right. How, how I kind of view the, where you're gonna lead in right now is I have a few clients that are very successful at overcrowding some of their pens, right? And I think the way they get away with it is everything else is perfect. You know, their, their milk barn is oversized. They're able to get those pens of 250 cows out in less than 45 minutes. And that's like the first cow in last cow out. So travel time, time on, like, you know, time on concrete, you know, how much time on concrete are they, you know, the, the standing time, there's no lockups.
Jason Brixey (18:27):
When the pen goes out, the freestyle fillers is, is in, they're groomed. They've got sand bedding the heat abatement. I mean, fans, soakers the whole nine yards. They get away with it because everything else is perfect. Like they've taken all the other stressors away. But the one stress they do have is the overcrowding. So they're able to make it work. And I, and then leading into the, the, the diet, the feed bunk side of things, the nutrition management side of things is, I don't think there's room and there's a huge opportunity for error when we feed a slick bunks in overcrowded situations. I think it's that much more important that we're shooting for orts or refusals at that point. And then we can get into what we're gonna do with that. But a cow, especially those, those higher, those higher producing type animals should not have to be looking for the next bite, in my opinion.
Dr. Jim Tully (19:24):
I, I, I just wrote a quick note. You and I talked yesterday, I think, or I don't think it was last night. Measures of efficiency, and there's, well, is it, is it milk per cow? I, I gotta be a hundred pounds per cow. Okay. If that's your goal, we can, we'll, we'll try and work and set some things up. Or is it milk per free stall? Can I, can I crowd up that, that pen and get, you know, more milk out of each? Or is it milk per parlor stall, or is it milk per pen? And, and I think, and then last night we did argue a little bit about, well, well what is the economic impact? And I know there's ways to measure that, to look at it, but I think every operation views it differently. An economists may think that that's crazy talk. You know, I didn't spend the night at a Holiday Inn Express last night. It was, but I just, I don't know if we can make one size fits all that dairymen need to do this. I, that's, that's just so, so the answer is it depends on which measure's, right? Yeah. There you go.
Jason Brixey (20:33):
Well, I mean, at the end of the day, I mean, I, I can understand why it's it's something that they end up, you know, doing over time because it makes the balance sheet look better, right? The value is in the cow. The asset is the cow. And the more assets I have, then it makes my balance sheet look better. And that's what the bank wants to see. Yes. Right? Yep. So, yeah, I mean it's economics and in science and they don't really care about each other a lot.
Dr. Jim Tully (20:59):
Yes. Yep. And I and in that back to, to Jeff's, is there a, a geographical difference? I think so you get east in the country, not all, but most herds crowd like to a number of 20% over Tom. What do you see in the, at least,
Dr. Tom Overton (21:20):
Right? It depends on the group, right, Jim? But I mean, boy, we push 'em down and transition and then, you know, it's not not uncommon in my world to still see 30% over, over stalls in a six row, six row barn. That's not unusual. And,
Dr. Jim Tully (21:36):
And, and I know some of those herds that, that you've been on too they can get really good, phenomenal milk per cow. What are you seeing in that New York area that maybe we can have the California guys adopt?
Dr. Tom Overton (21:53):
Yeah, and I'm not a, I'm not advocating here for more crowding here. 'cause I do think there's
Dr. Jim Tully (21:56):
An impact, but it's an asset, right?
Dr. Tom Overton (21:57):
Yes. And I do think that, you know, I mean, time by time again, you look at, when you're talking about, you know, how it impacts the ration, right? Or the diet, well, of course cow overcrowded cows eat slug feed, right? They eat a faster rate this much showing time and time and time again, it affects the rumen, it's gotta affect the rumen. You know, there's some, some work out of minor Russell, you know, Melissa wool, Melissa caribou now was it minor doing her grad grad work there? She did field study work on fatty acid profiles. So you think we got these de novo mixed preform fatty acids out there. Adam talked about these this week, you know, de novo kind of crudely affect, you know, reflect rumen efficiency room function and all these commercial farms. She look at all kinds of dietary factors and other things like that. In, in the two big sites. She did herds are overstocked had lower components, had lower, had lower de novo, likely driven by lower de novo fatty acids, likely driven by poor room efficiency, right? So, so it's, it's interesting how though it carried through strongly, probably stronger than any of the factors she looked at in those data sets.
Scott Sorrell (22:58):
So is there anything you can do to the ration, let's say, is there an overcrowding ration?
Dr. Jim Tully (23:03):
I, I'm gonna take notes on that,
Dr. Tom Overton (23:07):
Yeah. Well, you know, you're gonna run a little more conservative probably, right? In terms of some of your, your hotter fractures of carbohydrates and things like that, just 'cause you don't wanna tip the herd over.
Jason Brixey (23:16):
I know, a hundred percent. I mean, and I've had people tell me that too. It's like, well, that's great that I'm overcrowded, but it's not changing. So you're gonna have to work with that. So that's what we do. We work
Dr. Tom Overton (23:23):
With it, and you're probably gonna give up some milk and, you know, you know, there, there, there's gotta be. And that they don't want that either, right? They want, you know, they want everything. Yep.
Scott Sorrell (23:30):
Jason, is that common?
Jason Brixey (23:32):
I mean, yeah, it's common. I mean, I'm, I always say I'm, I'm a rheumatologist, not a nutritionist, right? So what made, what matters to me the most is, is the, is room and health. Like at the end of the day, a healthy cow is the one that's gonna give milk, right? A healthy cow is the one who's get, get, gonna get pregnant. So performance and production is not always the, the first goal, you know, on my list, it's, it's cow health. It's, it's, you know, the, the, the room is gonna feed the cow, right? So my job is to feed the rumen. Yeah.
Dr. Jim Tully (23:58):
I had, I had to dairyman I, I wasn't there for the conversation, but a dairyman and a, a former consultant who's now retired the, the owner was pushing on some stuff and, and the, the consultant said, the only reason I'm here apparently is I'm the only one who advocates for the cow
Scott Sorrell (24:23):
It, it was kind of back to having cows as an asset and, and needing too many, you know, to have those cows on the balance sheet, when in fact it may not, you know, whether it's cash flow, whatever it is, we could show them that it's better to have lower stocking rates if that is in fact, and I, I think the bankers do influence cal numbers a lot, right?
Dr. Jim Tully (24:46):
Yeah. Abs okay. Yeah. I, I work with a, not many, but a couple that have that sort of a relationship where the, the banker can be an advisor, not just, you know, a hammer. But I, I, I view it at a, a pretty high level. 'cause I don't wanna get into their, their books on that angle, but every cow is an asset, and I don't know what they have today on their books, but if, if you're milking a thousand cows, right? And each one's worth $1,500, there's a number on the balance, it's the bottom of the page. If you can do anything without tipping them over, right? And have a hundred more units and things can flow good, the bank is going to like that. I don't know of any bank that's not going to like that number to have gone up. Milk production is cashflow, and they need that, right?
Dr. Jim Tully (25:46):
So you have to do certain things to get that. So I'm not sure where, how a bank is going to come in and, and evaluate that, that I, I don't know. They're gonna wanna hide both, right? But there is trade offs and, and I think the science is getting better to more accurately predict the cow performance and then milk price, you know, all of the main factors on it. But I think we can talk to the clients. It's like, well, this is what I'm seeing, and you probably have this much detriment. Here's your negative factor. Then, you know, your, your, your balance sheet and your income statement can reflect that.
Dr. Tom Overton (26:27):
It probably varies some by part of the country lender, things like that too, I think. Right? I mean, I mean, no doubt balance sheets are key with all this, all this and things like that. But, you know, hopefully, you know, we get to the point where, and I think it's, it's slowly getting there where financial performance of the dairies are also being really factored in, right? So, and that's where some of these conversations can be into to enter in, right? So, you know, given my assets and things like that, I mean, are we really getting the, the, the right financial performance outta this operation? So,
Dr. Jeff Elliot (26:56):
So I've been hearing in this second time, I've, we've talked about on these podcasts, one of y'all mentioned it milk per stall and from an efficiency standpoint and whatnot. But is that milk per stall more from a banker perspective and that they're, those dairies are needs
Scott Sorrell (27:15):
For return on capital? Kind of, yeah.
Dr. Jim Tully (27:17):
I don't, I don't know. I've, I've usually heard it more say from the economists side at, at meetings like this presentations, if, if there's an economist on, on the, the panel or whatever, they'll talk about that as an efficiency measure. I don't know if the banks specifically have,
Dr. Jeff Elliot (27:37):
I'm not sure they, I'm not saying the banks would've specifically had, but it could have been derived from those conversations and it, but yeah, just curious. I'm hearing more and more on that.
Scott Sorrell (27:47):
Tom, any other key takeaways from the presentation that
Dr. Tom Overton (27:50):
Yeah, you, you know, again, I think, you know, some of these things we've covered pretty well, I think so far, right? Again, you know, the, the time budget stuff that pay attention to Jason, you know, the, you know, the different ways to consider stocking densities, things like that in different, or overcrowding different parts of the, of the lactation cycle, things like that. I mean, you know, one thing that was interesting wasn't necessarily part of Rick's presentation, but you know, not too long ago in the nor, you know, in the northeast when after COVID, our co-ops institute, these base programs, right? Which weren't really quotas, but they kind of were quotas, right? And so, you know, farms had to, you know, the, the initial thing is, we'll, we'll pay you full, full market value on 85% of your milk, and then you know, you take your chances after that relative to whatever the, the, the excess milk will bear. And, you know, we had farms at the time, you know, and, and it was, it was not like one farm did this, right? But I mean, you know, farms would call cows and milk flow would not change. Yep,
Dr. Jim Tully (28:48):
Yep, yep.
Dr. Tom Overton (28:49):
You know, and so, and so the farm, there were some farms that had to, you know, had to call a pile of cows before they actually could get milk flow to, to really go down. And it's an interesting learning for us at least thinking about, you know, my world, which is all, almost all, you know, confinement based systems, you know, lots of six row barn configurations, you know, occasionally some, some four row type of stuff. But, you know, those are, those are interesting discussions to have. I'm not sure we, I'm not sure we learned as much from that, maybe as we could, or, or our memory got short. It didn't stick, huh? I don't know. But maybe you guys see something different.
Jason Brixey (29:22):
I know. So 20 years ago we had a processor in the Central Valley part of California that across the board, everybody had to reduce 25%, and you can't feed for that, right? And so everyone cut deep, and the more we cut, it's like, the milk's not going away. What's, what's happening? They have not forgot that actually yet. And so, but for that area, and we don't really see a lot of the overcrowding like I do and, and other parts of of the west. But they, those guys have not forgot that good. Yeah.
Dr. Tom Overton (29:58):
And you know, again, we know that and alluded this, right? That, you know, that, that it's gonna be a different factor for every dairy, right? And that's, that's what makes this kind of tricky, right? Is it's, you can't go across the board and say, okay, you know, this level, here's the cliff. Right? And you know, and so that's what makes, you know, your job pretty challenging as you work with your clients and things like that to help them, you know, figure out the sweet spot.
Jason Brixey (30:20):
Yeah. Well, I mean, the
Dr. Jim Tully (30:21):
Navigation of it,
Jason Brixey (30:23):
I, I think it was like 1991, that old DHI Minnesota data that was put together on, you know, cows leaving the herd in the first 90 days, right? And, and still to this day, if you look at it, it's the two big reasons. This mastitis and lameness, you know, and then the facilities that are overcrowded, it makes it even worse. And so lameness, like I go back to some of those rules that we can't break, you know, maintenance, trimming. I mean, I, I still, that is a huge conversation on a lot of very progressive ds, man. I've seen a lot of long feet still, you know, and you're, you know, these cows have to travel. They're on their, they're on their feet more on concrete. 'cause They're 30% overcrowded. Like, we can't let that get out of control.
Dr. Jim Tully (31:04):
That's really important. Jason, as you're asking the question, Scott, well, what can people do? Do the right things, you know, take care of the cow trimming feet is, is a perfect example of it. You know, especially on the three x herd that that's crowded type thing.
Jason Brixey (31:20):
I think some of these answers are just too easy to be honest with you. And so it's like, wow, it can't be right. I, there's something you can do in the diet, right? Can't
Dr. Jim Tully (31:27):
You gimme an additive that's really gonna help that. So, so if I can, this this'll be me being on an opinion page. Okay? Yeah. Right. Oh God. Here we go.
Dr. Jim Tully (32:25):
Cows are doing better than ever. And I, I'm like, this doesn't make sense. I talked to the herdsman. He said, I, I think there's two things that were long past the BST days, right? And he has really good people in the herdsman group that really care about the cows. They're, they're, they're doing all of those things. So now they're 35% overcrowded. And, and I'm pretty sure in their minds they, well, we can go to 40
Dr. Jim Tully (33:32):
They go get the bed and they're going to just adapt to that in 2, 3, 4 hours. When that cow's done eating, done walking around, this cow's going to get up and go to the bed or go to the feed bunk. And what I think I see is that hour and a half before going to the parlor is when you see the crowding, you'll see a lot of cows perching, you know, the beds are full, and there'll be a cow that really wishes she could lie down, but she can't. And then within an hour they're gonna go to the parlor. So I, I don't, I know it's not good. I know it's a negative, but I think that's how the cows adapt to
Dr. Jeff Elliot (34:17):
It. So one of the slides he showed, Rick showed, 'cause I was gonna bring this up, and he talked about the multi purs in relation to the first calf. And then that same slide, he had sound legs versus ones with lameness. And it was almost a quadratic. You go up to 130% overcrowding. And that difference between sound and lame or older cows and young got big, but then when he got to 140%, I know it's not statistical or anything, but he showed, it's almost like it was less, maybe it is that two herd mentality. Yeah.
Dr. Jim Tully (34:54):
And I don't know if that's right. I think there's actually some science that disputes it, which is fine. But that's just been my observation. I I think that, 'cause again, since it's my opinion, it's Right.
Dr. Jeff Elliot (35:08):
You can say it right, it may not be right, but you can say it Right. I like that. There you go. I like
Dr. Jim Tully (35:12):
That. I like that, Jeff. That, but my observation kind of fits that. Now I need to be careful to have that an unbiased look. But it's like there's two herds in, in this pen.
Scott Sorrell (35:25):
You know, I was kind of curious, we, we've had some conversations this week already about the lack of heifer supply. And I'm wondering if that's gonna have a, a positive impact on crowding
Dr. Jim Tully (35:37):
I thought of that about 15 minutes ago. I hadn't until, until then. I don't know.
Scott Sorrell (35:42):
Haven't seen it yet though. Huh?
Dr. Tom Overton (35:43):
Haven't seen it yet. Right. But it's, you know, again, animals in the system, stuff like that, it's possible. Right. But again, I think it's still, I mean, herds will still, you know, we're not gonna hear it's underpopulated, I don't think. Right. So, I mean, they'll figure out how to, how to have those animals and things like that.
Dr. Jeff Elliot (35:57):
Well, between that and the debate over, you know, the getting genetics into the herd soon and keeping cows longer because they're more productive paid off and, you know, people may switch that possible.
Dr. Jim Tully (36:11):
I, I think right now, herds are doing pretty well. 'cause they are milking older cows.
Scott Sorrell (36:15):
Yeah.
Scott Sorrell (36:17):
They're gonna time out though.
Dr. Jim Tully (36:19):
Yeah. I, I think there's a, a day of reckoning Yeah. Is, is coming and then they'll, each operation will make a different decision.
Scott Sorrell (36:26):
Yeah.
Dr. Jim Tully (36:26):
I think, I think it'll affect them different. So
Dr. Tom Overton (36:29):
Jason, I was curious, you know, your herd that, you know, you went back from a three x to two x right. And gained some milk. I mean, I, I mean, and this is by no means advocating for that, you know, for her to really think about that. But I'm curious on, you know, what were the, you know, did they think they were gonna lose milk coming in? How surpri or making that change? Did they, did they, were they surpris? How surprised were they?
Jason Brixey (36:48):
Well, I mean, when you make the decision to go to three x, it's based on an expectation. Right? I'm gonna get Yeah.
Dr. Jim Tully (36:55):
8% more milk.
Jason Brixey (36:56):
Right. Exactly. And, you know, intake's gonna go up. This, my feed efficiency's gonna improve. There's all these improvements, improvements, improvements. But we forget that a two x mentality management system doesn't work in a three X system. Like everything has to improve. And that, that's where the wheels fall off in my and from, from my standpoint. But yeah, they were, they were, they were pretty nervous. And they were pretty nervous, but in my mind it was like, it's just a math problem. Like there's only 24 hours in a day. They're not getting the, the right amount of time to do all of those different things. They're breaking all these rules, you know, as soon as they have the time to, to, to do it. Right. It has to pay off. There's no way. It can't.
Scott Sorrell (37:38):
Alright. Good. Well, I, what I'd like to do now is guys just kind of put a bow on this for the audience, right. Just one or two key takeaway things that you think that, you know, dairy farmers out there need to know or are, are fellow nutritionists? I'll start with my, my, my co-hosts Jeffrey,
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Dr. Jeff Elliot (38:20):
Okay. So one thing I just wrote down, I loved it when you talked about the math. You know, math may be the one thing in this world that doesn't lie. We may interpret it wrong or may interpret it, but math is correct. And then the other thing I wrote down, heard it several times this week, was the subclinical and the, I just love the concept of that for this and the co-infections. And that infection may not be a true bacterial thing. Could be heat stress, it could be whatever that is. But I think we've gotta keep those in mind. Some things, sometimes things don't come to light until something else, another stressor.
Scott Sorrell (39:04):
So, yeah. Yeah. Good comments, Jeff. We'll kick it over to our color commentator over here, Dr. Overton.
Dr. Tom Overton (39:10):
Yeah. So, so Jeff, I, you know, I hadn't heard the subclinical description before this week either. Right. And I think that was a really interesting way to, to think about that. But I think, you know, one, one takeaway for herds and their advisors is, is, you know, it's gonna be a different situation for every herd a bit. And, and just because your neighbor's doing something doesn't mean it might work on you farm. And so that's the tricky part, you know, of navigating all this, so,
Scott Sorrell (39:35):
Yeah. Yeah. And that's why we got these guys right. To help them Exactly. Navigate that and kind of the guide to the forest. So, and with that one, we kick it over to Jason. Jason, you got any comments for us?
Jason Brixey (39:44):
Yeah, I mean, I know we didn't really dive, you know, deep into diet formulation or, or you know, get technical on how to feed, you know, for these different scenarios because I don't think that's the answer. Just, you know, vaguely, it's, you know, you had mentioned it too, Tom, that we've gotta be a little bit more conservative, right? And 'cause you know, that, you know, there's gonna be an animal that's gonna be eating and there's one behind her waiting. As long as that animal that behind is behind her is going to eat the same diet as the one that just backed out. Like, so, you know, sorting particle size, all of those things matter moisture content. So we are gonna be a little bit more conservative you know, on the way we, we feed cows. And I think health is gonna be still number one in my mind.
Jason Brixey (40:35):
But it, it, it's gonna come down to nutrition management. And I think in, in scenarios like those, we had a, an older partner that, you know, said all the time that I'd rather feed a bad diet consistently than a good diet. Inconsistently and consistency is gonna matter and it's gonna win the day on everything. If we, if we screw it up one time, if, you know, vet checks are on Tuesday, well, they're locked up for three hours that day. Well, we messed up that day, we broke the rule that day, we're gonna pay for the rest of the week.
Dr. Jeff Elliot (41:04):
So have you, I'm gonna interject here again. So either one of you been on a herd, maybe lost that account, but it came back to they weren't making the right changes to get really the improvements they were wanting. You realize maybe it was overcrowding. See what I'm getting at? I'm just,
Dr. Jim Tully (41:25):
Since my diets are always perfect, I'd say a hundred, a hundred, a hundred percent of the time. And, and, and I don't mean that like sarcastic, I, it, it usually is about meeting expectations of what they want done and our failure to communicate what would be some potential correct remedies, though it, it falls back on us. We've not been able to address it in a manner that's going to get it
Dr. Jeff Elliot (41:55):
Done, but it's beyond communication. It's convincing them sometimes that's right. You might communicate it, but can you convince 'em to make the change? Yeah.
Dr. Jim Tully (42:03):
Yep. I think so.
Jason Brixey (42:04):
That's the tough part about consulting. Like nobody really wants to be held accountable. Yeah.
Dr. Jim Tully (42:09):
Yep.
Scott Sorrell (42:11):
Yep. Gotta be part salesman, Jeff, right? Yeah.
Dr. Jim Tully (42:14):
He's figured out how to be a decent one.
Scott Sorrell (42:17):
Well, and I heard Jason,
Dr. Jim Tully (42:18):
I don't wanna say good.
Scott Sorrell (42:21):
You know, part of convincing too, right, is having the right tools, the right data. And you mentioned before that some of the stuff that gives him credit to Dr. Rick Grant, right? He's given you some tools to work with, so, and
Dr. Jeff Elliot (42:31):
I, I just wanna make it clear to him saying that I'm decent. Yeah. Not good, but that's a compliment coming from him
Scott Sorrell (42:38):
Sure, sure. Jim, great conversation. Any final comments for us? Well,
Dr. Jim Tully (42:43):
Outside of making sure my email address and phone number or prominently displayed Yeah. In this podcast.
Scott Sorrell (42:51):
And, and, and why don't you share, welcome to Share It here if you'd like.
Dr. Jim Tully (42:55):
I, I, I'm not as fancy as Fancy Pants over here. I, I just went with a Gmail account tully640@gmail.com. But, but all kidding aside, Jason reminded me of this paper it's a dozen years ago, Alex's box, Alec, whatever, box paper outta Spain, where 18 herds were fed the exact same diet. They did not get the exact same results. I, I would encourage, and it's a, it's a scientific paper, but it is easy to read. I would encourage every dairyman to find that paper and read it. It, it was, it's revolutionary work. I don't, do you remember what year that would've been published?
Dr. Tom Overton (43:41):
Yeah, I think it was early two thousands, I think. But again, you know, the interesting thing there, they were, they were all, all these herds were fed the same TMR made in the same center, so the same forages, same fee, everything was the same. And, and yet I think, you know,
Jason Brixey (43:55):
Yeah. The non, the non nutritional factors and
Dr. Tom Overton (43:57):
Like half of the variance,
Jason Brixey (43:59):
I mean, it was like 20 pounds of milk difference. Yeah. You know,
Scott Sorrell (44:02):
So if you guys get me that reference, I can put it in the show notes of this. Yeah. I can get it for you. Yeah. We'll do that for you. Great paper. Yeah. Jason, how can people get ahold of you?
Jason Brixey (44:10):
So J Hart Livestock Service I do I forgot to mention this earlier, not just dairy consulting, but also feedlots and custom heifer ranches and calf ranches. So my expertise is, is a little, a little has expanded over the years. And so my email's bricky@jrs.com.
Scott Sorrell (44:33):
Okay. Very well, gentlemen, this has been fun. Yes. Been a good one. Thank you. I appreciate you joining us. Appreciate you guys. Good luck to both of you. Appreciate it. Yeah. Thank you, Jeff, as always. Thank you. Good job, Tom. You're a pro. Thanks always are to our loyal audience out there. Thanks again for joining us. Hope you learned something. I hope you had some fun, and I hope to see you next time here at Real Science Exchange, where it's always happy hour and you're always among friends.
Scott Sorrell (45:02):
Hi, I am Scott Sorrell. I'm here to invite you to a very special event at the upcoming ADSA conference in Louisville. It's gonna be a bourbon tasting. We're calling it bourbon and brainiacs. Now, why do you call it bourbon and brainiacs? Because we're gonna have all your favorite professors there doing a bourbon tasting. We're gonna have six to eight bourbons there. We're gonna be recording a podcast and doing the tasting. While we're there, we've even got a a bourbon, a barista, which I'm not sure exactly what that is, but we're gonna have one of them there. Now, listen, this is only for 120 of our favorite friends. That's all this place holds. We're gonna have it at the Fraser Museum. It's a bourbon museum there in Louisville, and so only 120 people can can fit in there. And so we want you to be one of them. And so to become one of the one 20, all you have to do is go to balchem.com/bourbon and register. Once those 120 slots are gone, they're gonna be gone. But I hope to see you there.
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