Dr. Hristov gave a webinar titled “Histidine: a limiting amino acid for dairy cows” on March 4, 2025, and joins the podcast in this episode for a deeper dive into the topic. Panelists introduce themselves and give some background on their interest in histidine (00:52) Dr. Hristov gives an overview of his webinar presentation, touching on some of the first research projects that showed lower protein diets resulted in no change in plasma methionine, but a decrease in plasma histidine. When dietary protein decreases, the cow relies more on microbial protein to meet her needs. Histidine content is about 20% less than methionine content in microbial protein. He also notes there are some short-term reserves of histidine in the body, so short-term studies may not show a histidine deficiency when indeed there is one. (7:08)
Dr. Hristov gave a webinar titled “Histidine: a limiting amino acid for dairy cows” on March 4, 2025, and joins the podcast in this episode for a deeper dive into the topic.
Panelists introduce themselves and give some background on their interest in histidine (00:52)
Dr. Hristov gives an overview of his webinar presentation, touching on some of the first research projects that showed lower protein diets resulted in no change in plasma methionine, but a decrease in plasma histidine. When dietary protein decreases, the cow relies more on microbial protein to meet her needs. Histidine content is about 20% less than methionine content in microbial protein. He also notes there are some short-term reserves of histidine in the body, so short-term studies may not show a histidine deficiency when indeed there is one. (7:08)
Matt gives some perspective as a consulting nutritionist about the importance of histidine in diet formulation for his clientele. He agrees with Dr. Hristov about the higher requirement for histidine compared to methionine, and he generally formulates diets with 1.1 times more histidine than methionine. (12:38)
The panelists share their experiences with the responses observed from providing additional histidine to lactating cows, including milk and component yields and changes in dry matter intake and body condition. They also talk about how muscle loss can mask a histidine deficiency in the short term. (15:43)
The panelists discuss the challenges in determining histidine requirements and finding reliable sources of highly bioavailable histidine. (24:04)
Why is rumen-protected histidine not commercially available? Clay explains it is due to the high cost of histidine. There are no feed-grade sources, and using human-grade sources is cost-prohibitive. Dr. Hristov notes swine nutritionists are starting to pay more attention to histidine, which might bring the cost down if demand increases. Matt notes aquaculture is also interested in histidine. (33:58)
Matt comments that increasing fat content can be problematic for cheese plants. He sees increasing milk protein yield may be the next frontier of dairy nutrition and histidine might play an important role. The panel discusses the role milk pricing has played in the increased fat content. (37:32)
The panel discusses what other amino acids might be important in dairy nutrition as research continues. They also touch on methane mitigation and reducing methane intensity per unit of milk. (43:45)
Panelists share their take-home thoughts. (54:31)
View Dr. Hristov’s webinar on this subject by visiting https://balchem.com/anh/podcasts-webinars/histidine-a-limiting-amino-acid-for-dairy-cows-2/
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Scott (00:07):
Good evening everyone, and welcome to the Real Science Exchange, the pubcast where leading scientists and industry professionals meet over a few drinks to discuss the latest ideas and trends in animal nutrition. Uh, we've got a, an interesting one teed up for you guys tonight. Uh, we had a, a webinar given by Dr. Alex Histrov from Penn State University, uh, back on oc uh, March 4th. He gave a presentation titled Histidine Limiting Amino Acid for Dairy Cows. So, really looking forward, uh, Alex to, uh, to diving into that, you know, as we get started today, uh, before we, uh, talk specifically about histamine, would you mind giving the audience just kind of an overview of yourself and, um, how'd you get interested in histamine?
Dr. Hristov (00:52):
Sure, Scott. Thank you. Um, I'm, uh, here, professor at, uh, Penn State Department of Animal Science. Um, we work, uh, with dairy cattle. Uh, dairy nutrition is my specialty. Um, I was, the work with his has been going for about 10 plus years. How we got interested in it was basically we were looking at reducing ammonia emissions from manure. I came to Penn State 17 years ago from, uh, Idaho, and, um, the Dairyman Association there had a project for us to look at, uh, nitrogen and ammonia emissions. And the most efficient way to do that is decreasing, uh, dietary protein. So we started, uh, doing that kind of work, and, um, then we realized that every time we had, uh, a raw protein diet, uh, we have been seeing a consistent decrease in plasma histamine in these cows. And that's how we got interested in, uh, history.
Scott (02:03):
Ah, excellent. Well, looking forward to the discussion today. I've also, uh, Matt, we call you the color commentator. So, uh, your role today is to, to ask those, uh, tough questions that other nutritionists would ask, or the dairy farmer. Uh, Matt, you and I have known each other for quite a while, and, and for as long as I remember, you've had an interest in Histidine. Uh, would you start off by, um, introducing yourself, your company, and tell us how did you get interested in, in Histidine?
Matt Budine (02:34):
Yeah, thank you, Scott. Yeah, I, uh, first of all, I'm Matt Budine, the president, CEO of Progressive Dairy Solutions. Uh, we're a large independent group, a dairy nutritionist here in the us and we have some presence outside the US and South America in the Middle East and, uh, eastern Europe. Uh, the subject of histamines really excited, uh, excites me, particularly when we just talk about amino acid balance and, and really that's the next, uh, frontier in dairy nutrition. Uh, and I've been working on it a long time. My first excitement being a graduate at Cornell University in, in a, uh, disciple of Dr. Charlie Sniffing, uh, in, uh, really got me excited about blood meal and the characteristics of blood meal. And at the time, really focused on high and lysine and histamine, and of course, blood meal, uh, has a lot of variability in the marketplace, and we really have to learn a lot over the last 35 years of how can we feed this, uh, dairy ingredient out there and really find what are some key characteristics of it.
Matt Budine (03:39):
And histamine is one of those key characteristics. And as parts of the world has eliminated the ability to feed blood meal, uh, the, uh, the ability to balance for protected histamine or bypass histamine's really critical. And so I've been involved in a couple of experimental trials, uh, with different companies feeding protected histamine, and, uh, you know, we've seen some nice responses to that. You know, ultimately what, what it's about for us as a group of dairy nutritionists in the field, we're really excited to increase milk production and increase, uh, the efficiency of our dairy operations. And we feel that hissene is a key nutrient to do that. And, uh, so we spent a lot of time trying to evaluate, uh, how to become more effective and efficient with feeding protected hissy.
Scott (04:30):
Yeah. Thank you for that overview, Matt. Uh, you know, one of the points you made about, uh, some countries not having the, uh, blood meal available to them. I, I, I wanna circle back on that a little bit, right? Because I think that kind of limits their productivity and, and, and maybe an opportunity, um, for histamine down the road. Clay, I don't wanna leave you out. He's gonna be co-host today. Clay, you've got an interest in his dean as well. Real quick, what do you do for Balchem and what's your interest in histidine?
Clay (05:00):
Yep. So I'm, I'm ba KEMs, director of Science for Animal Nutrition and Health Group. And I, I also lead our, um, our technical team for the US ruminant group as well. So we, we have a lot of interest in histamine, certainly from a rumor protected standpoint. Uh, we've actually, we've actually made it experimentally since 2008. So it's, it's been used a lot in, in, in various published animal studies over the last 15 years or so.
Scott (05:33):
Yeah, that's another topic, clay, I want to dig into a little bit later as well. But, but first, let's get started with Dr. Ov. Uh, Dr. Oph, you gave the, uh, presentation his limiting amino acid for dairy cows. Um, so it's always been limiting, but it always seems like it's the third one we've talked about. Um, may maybe, uh, talk about that first, why is his team kind of taken third place? And then give us kind of an overview of some of the key tenets to the presentation you gave back on March 4th,
Scott (06:11):
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Dr. Hristov (07:08):
Sure. Uh, I'll try to summarize in couple of minutes what, what we've been talking this presentations. As I said, uh, the work started when we had this continuous design trials that are not Latin square, that are not crossover, and for a longer period of time. And when we fed this whole protein diets to these cows, one interesting thing we have seen is that methine plasma methine did not change. Plasma didn't change. What changed was plasma histamine concentrations consistently. So that's one thing I showed, uh, in, in that presentation. And, uh, that triggered an interest in, uh, uh, in histamine. And in fact, Balam was the first one, uh, first company we worked with, uh, with women protected histamine. That was quite some time ago. Um, and we did the first trial. We saw some good responses, and we continued that work. Uh, over the years, we have, I dunno, 15, 16 publications probably with, uh, histamine one, uh, important, probably couple of important points here to make is that, um, we do see, uh, a larger response on, uh, low protein diets or metabolism protein deficient diets that are not extremely deficient, but still be low NRC 2001 on our NAS 2021, uh, recommendations.
Dr. Hristov (08:48):
Uh, there are reasons for that that we can discuss later on. Uh, one other unique thing about couple of, uh, unique things about histamine to keep in mind as we, uh, keep going here is that, first of all, microbial protein has a low, uh, histamine, uh, levels than, uh, met. So these two amino acids are metabolite similarly, uh, they're similar concentrations in milk cain and so on, but, uh, there is about maybe 20 plus percent lower histamine in microbial protein than metin. And when you decrease total protein input, uh, and you decrease metabolism of protein supply with feet, you are increasing the role of microbial protein as a source of metabolism protein, and then that deficiency becomes more evident. Uh, the other important point about histamine is that it has those, uh, um, body depos of, uh, appetites of, uh, hemoglobin, for example, that can provide histamine for a period of time. And again, we can discuss this later, but that's one interfering factor, particularly in, in short term research studies, uh, that that doesn't allow histamine to show up as a limiting amino acid. And you say, uh, third, I would say, uh, on under some conditions is the first limiting amino acid if we have to rank them.
Scott (10:19):
Oh, interesting. So, one thing I kind of wanna dig into is, you talked about, you'll see more results, maybe I didn't hear you right, but more results on lower protein diets. Can you kind of talk a little bit about that?
Dr. Hristov (10:32):
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, again, that comes from the point that I just made. When you decrease total protein input, you increasing, obviously feed protein, input feed, uh, um, good protein input and, uh, metabolism protein that comes from RUP. So obviously the major, uh, source of acids and metabolism protein for the cow is microbial protein. For the most part, 65, 70% of, for the metabolism protein comes from microbial protein. Now, when you decrease RUP input or rumine ungraded protein input, you are obviously increasing the other part of the a hundred percent, which is the microbial, um, mp, uh, metabolism protein. And that protein is more deficient in histamine than met. So you are increasing, in fact, the, the negative role of, uh, histamine, uh, deficiency in, in this kind of situations. Okay. We have, I mean, we have papers published on this, and clearly you can see when you draw the graphs that the response to histamine supplementation is in a more MP or cooked protein, well cooked protein MP deficient diets done in a higher cooked protein, um, higher MP diets.
Scott (12:04):
So I'm kind of curious, um, we've got a lot of professors, Dr. Mike Van Amberg for one, then we have, I think, Matt, I wanna put words in your mouth, but I think you guys are pretty aggressive using lysine methionine in the field. And I'm kind of curious what a a, as those levels continue to increase, does that then also then increase the role of histidine or the need for histidine in diets? Can you talk a little bit about that? Does that make, um,
Dr. Hristov (12:35):
Go, go ahead.
Matt Budine (12:38):
Well, from, from a nutrition standpoint, we definitely see that, uh, you know, out there, there's a lot of protected lysine and protective thine products that, uh, shown to be very successful. Uh, but we also see that if used them by themselves and not incorporate, uh, like in our experience, we're using things like red blood cells, where have a high bioavailability of lysine and hiid in its bypass, uh, source for dairy cows. And when we do that, we actually see, uh, a greater response, making sure that histamine's up there, uh, just like the research shows that, you know, histamine levels need to be at methionine, uh, levels or maybe a little greater in our experience, uh, what we see is we wanna be about 1.1, uh, per and higher, 1.1 times greater in, uh, the histamine levels, uh, than we do, uh, protective methionine levels. So, when, you know, for example, our team benchmarks high fruit and cows.
Matt Budine (13:41):
We have 278,000 cows in this benchmark study that we just competed in, completed here in February. And, uh, these cows are very high producing cows. Uh, the 278,000 cows average, uh, amongst three x two x jerseys cross reds and Holsteins, uh, right at 103 energy corrected milk. When we break out the Holstein three x herdz, they average 108.6 pounds of energy corrected milk. Now, we measured the level of histamine in those that we're targeting in the diets, and, and we're at 93 grams, uh, of digestible histamine. Uh, according to the, the models that we're using, both from a MTS and NDS, which are Cornell, uh, model based, uh, in those same diets, we're around 81, uh, grams of protected, you know, bypass, methionine available, uh, in those diets. Uh, so we, we see that there's definitely an, uh, opportunity, uh, to increase that. Uh, we know that, uh, some of the research is showing that, you know, we've got a minimum requirement in hypers and herds around 75, but our data shows that when you get it up into 90, 93 and some dairy diets are up over a hundred, uh, we're seeing significant, uh, production responses.
Matt Budine (15:08):
Uh, so we're excited to even explore this area more, and if we have the protected histamine as a greater tool, then we can actually play and, and push this, uh, in, in our practicing in the field, uh, even at a higher level. So we're, we're really excited to get these tools out there for our, our nutritionists.
Clay (15:30):
So, so Alex, you know, maybe just to bring the audience up to speed here. So what are the typical responses you've seen supplementing histidine in your research?
Dr. Hristov (15:43):
Yeah, first, let me just comment to Matt that that's, that's great. I like what you said, Matt. The reason for a higher, again, histidine done metin requirements, let's say we, or recommendations, is that low histidine concentration in microbial protein compared to metin. And again, Helen w appear in Canada has done tremendous work in showing how amino acids are metabolized in internally. And hist and me are metabolized. Similarly, they're in that group one amino acids. Uh, and at the same time, you have this war concentration of histamine. So that's where the, uh, the difference is coming between, uh, histamine met, then you'll need more his history than matan digestible history. Uh, what are the main responses we, we've seen, we just did a meta-analysis that was published last year, I think, uh, 22, uh, studies, um, with, uh, histamine either abo infused or supplemented through the diet room and protected histamine DR intake increases milk production increases.
Dr. Hristov (17:03):
These are a statistical increases, uh, and, uh, milk, milk protein as percent, and as yield also increase. These are the main effects that we have seen. Milk fat, for some reason, tended to decrease. Um, we had hard time explaining that could be a volume effect. If you increase milk volume, uh, you may expect some decrease in milk fat concentration and so on. Uh, but these are the main effects. When we started this work, um, we were puzzled by that dry matter intake effect, and we did some literature search. We went back and forth, uh, digging, uh, around, um, lab animal research and monogastric non ruminant research. And seems like that some Amin acids, including histamine in fact, have, um, uh, some effect on brain regulation, feeding intake. So apart from milk production, DRT intake, there are may be some neurological or physiological effect of, uh, histamine on DRT intake.
Speaker 5 (18:16):
Alright.
Matt Budine (18:17):
One of the things that, uh, you know, that really, uh, maybe hides or inhibits a response to histamine is when a cow is mobilizing body tissue to meet their energy demands, uh, you know, that really hides the response to histamine sometimes. So, uh, what I think is the unintended consequences or the benefits of feeding, uh, you know, uh, protected histamine or, uh, enhanced histidine diet is I think we actually allow the cow to mobilize less body tissue and early lactation, which gives her more energy reserves to keep that high production for a longer period of time. Now, when you look at world record cows, uh, like our world record cow, uh, uh, you know, the latest one, uh, average 214 pounds a day for an entire 365 days, uh, these cows need to maintain body weight through the entire lactation. And, uh, the ability to supplement or balance for high, uh, uh, levels of histamine, uh, definitely can help us in that, uh, in that case. And I, I, I'm really excited if we could learn more about this and, and, and Dr. Soff, you know, what's your experience in body tissue being removed during early lactation and how that can kind of hide or supplement, uh, that, you know, for a short period of time, these hyper and cows?
Dr. Hristov (19:45):
Absolutely. Matt, I'm glad you brought this point. As I said, there are these internal, uh, storage, if you want, the pots, reserves of histamine, not specifically histamine, but two deep peptides that are hiin, dipeptides, carine, and anine in muscles and blood hemoglobin. Blood hemoglobin also is a source of hiin. So you, I mean, we did this calculations a number of times. How long, for example, uh, these sources can sustain histamine deficiencies? Of course, these things vary, but, uh, in our best estimates, up to three, four weeks, probably you won't see a histamine deficiency in a war histamine diet, or when histamine is truly deficient, you won't see it because we, we, we have seen definitely decrease in plasma carine in muscle carine. We did biopsies over the years, and we have clearly seen, uh, that, uh, these sources are used when histidine is deficient in the diet. We have seen, uh, uh, blood, um, hemoglobin decreased, uh, when the diet is deficient in histidine. And as soon as we supplement histamine ru protected histamine, uh, block hemoglobin goes up back to the control levels. So absolutely, when you, if you have fat only metabolized, clearly that's not going to affect histamine supply. But when you have muscles and cows always lose both in a rotation, uh, then, then you'll have, uh, that supply of histamine that will mask, uh, the deficiency in the diet.
Clay (21:38):
So, Alex, are, are there, are there practical implications of reducing, you know, the plasma levels of carnosine or hemoglobin in these cows
Dr. Hristov (21:50):
In the long term? There will be practical implica implications, of course. Yes. Uh, but cows go through that, uh, you know, nutrient deficiency period relatively quickly within a few weeks. So depends again, what the diet is, uh, whether you are targeting a low protein feeding, there are reasons for that. Obviously, the feed cost is number one. Uh, then, then you may certainly, uh, see consequences of the, of those, uh, depletion of those depos.
Clay (22:26):
What, what stage of lactation are the cows typically in when you're, you know, when you're running your studies?
Dr. Hristov (22:33):
Yeah, so most of the time we are trying to avoid the negative energy balance stage for a number of reasons. Our, our studies are either with, uh, uh, early lactation. When I say early lactation, we are talking about 60 plus days in milk and lactation cows. We did, um, a transition cow, not transition exactly, but fresh cow study that we just finished, uh, with histamine, and we did not see a response to histamine supplementation. We are still digging through the data now to find, uh, figure out what, um, what is going on. Um, again, maybe the blood, uh, uh, hemoglobin and, um, the deep peptides in, in muscle have supplied enough history in that stage to, to avoid deficiency. But we are still working with the data to figure it out.
Scott (23:35):
Yeah, Dr. Safia talked a little bit about deficiencies that that would imply that we know the requirement, right? And so I would, how well do we know the requirement, right? The Nassim came out, what is it now, four years ago? And, and, and the cow we're feeding today is not the cow we were feeding just four years ago. And so, yeah. Can you talk a little bit about that? How well do we know and understand the requirements of, of the modern dairy cow or, you know, the future cow five years from now?
Dr. Hristov (24:04):
Yeah. I always say to my students, uh, we are not even close to where the pig and poultry nutritionists are on the minimal acid, and we probably will never be there. Uh, it's extremely difficult to tell you frankly, um, what Matt was talking about. We, we compare to Metin most of the time. Uh, we have, not us, but in general, there is a lot more research done with Metin. We know the differences between these two immune acids. We know the sources, uh, in feed, and so and so, uh, basically mat is correct. You have to have, I would say more than 1.1, maybe 1.2, 1.3, 1.3, maybe extreme up to 1.2 times, uh, digestible his history done meran, how Well, in fact, the, there is research done 30, 40 years ago with, uh, histamine. And because of this interference from Carine answering and blood hemoglobin and the type of design experimental designs that have been used over the years, and the limitation of a crossover Latin square design, there is no, uh, firm number that I can give it to you. Our data show at least 75 grams per day digestible histamine for a normal cow that is 9,000 pounds, uh, milk per day.
Scott (25:44):
Yeah,
Dr. Hristov (25:45):
Matt says, higher than that. I I have no problem with it.
Matt Budine (25:50):
Yeah. And these cows that we're looking at are, you know, are from herds that are aging significantly higher than that 90 to a hundred pounds or 108 with a 60 pound dry intake with feed efficiencies, uh, around 1 75, 1 78. So that's our goal. Our goal is to find, you know, not only make our herds more efficiency and nitrogen utilization in, in doing that, that allows us to really, uh, put more nutrients towards that room and increase microbial yield. Uh, which again, as you stated in some of your research, enhances the, uh, the, probably the need or the potential limitation of bypass histidine. But our goal is to get these herds, uh, even at higher levels and higher performance, and trying to understand how, what those nutrient requirements are. You know, in our study we have, uh, five herds at over 120 pounds, energy corrected milk, and with one herd at 133 pounds of energy corrected milk.
Matt Budine (26:50):
And so we're trying to figure out what is the future requirements of amino acids? And, you know, like you said, lysine and methionine is heavily talked about, easily supplemented through protected amino acid sources. But, uh, so far histamine's one of those nutrients is, uh, that really we don't have that, uh, supplementation readily available out there, and we have to do it through ingredients. And, uh, uh, you know, Dr. Ov, some of your work shows that, you know, blood meal is probably the highest, but cain's another ingredient that, uh, that's high in histamine, and, you know, so how, how can we look and what other sources can we look to potentially balance those diets, uh, before we have the, uh, publicly available, uh, protected histamine sources out there?
Dr. Hristov (27:40):
Yeah. As you, as you know, Matt, the only thing I I can bring up here is blood meal, good quality blood meal. Um, one can say that you have the confounding factor of, of lysin, uh, but, uh, you know, in my experience, and I, I'm not afraid to say it here, it's not the lies in, it's the histamine in blood meal that gives you the responses for the most time, most situations. Other than that, really the isn't, um, any other fe that, uh, is typically high. I didn't know about Cajun Cajun, of course, uh, has his history. I didn't know it's available, of course, if it's available, yes, sure. Uh, when we look at diff individual feeds, seems like cotton seed, whole cotton seed has a little more histamine than, you know, typical, um, dairy feeds out there, so that, that could be another one. But we typically feed already, uh, cotton seed, and we know what the issues could be there with fats and unsaturated fatty acids and so on.
Matt Budine (28:52):
Yeah. And one of the things that we seen, uh, is that our corn byproducts and corn typically are slightly low in histidine. So when you use things like the Steelers grains or, uh, or, uh, corn, gluten meal, 60 corn derived protein sources tend to be low in histidine. And, uh, you know, in our society today, and we have a lots of readily available byproducts, the cows are great up cyclers of these byproducts, and they become very efficient and very sustainable for our industry. However, that does bring out and maybe highlight the, uh, need for histamine in these cows diets because those corn byproducts are typically low, uh, in the source. So, uh, yeah, I, I, I see that really understanding and be students of our ingredients and our byproducts are really important for our nutritionist to understand how they can impact, uh, that dairy diet, uh, with supplemental amino acids.
Dr. Hristov (29:50):
Absolutely. Matt, and you, you bring another good point, uh, uh, that I, I was thinking about. It's not just the total I amino acid, it's their availability in these byproducts, um, digestibility, intestinal digestibility, nas, even the, the latest thing that we have is, is not, uh, up to date with, with both of these byproduct and the intestinal, the intestinal digestibility of amino acid. And is there a difference there between, um, digestibility of histamine ly in theanine, for example, in, in the distillers? We don't know that.
Scott (30:27):
Yeah. Matt, you said you use a lot of blood meal and high quality blood mill is paramount, but so how hard is that defined and is it different in various parts of the country or world where you guys operate? And then, and then how do you ensure, uh, what steps do you guys take to ensure that you you're getting high quality blood meal?
Matt Budine (30:48):
Well, it's a very good question, and it's been a, uh, age old question. And as we learn more and more about it, that, uh, the sources of blood meal that you get is really critical. You gotta find plants that have a very systematic approach to drying that blood and, and getting that, uh, to a consistent, highly digestible source. And we work, uh, very diligently with the individual suppliers testing those levels for digestible, uh, protein levels and total track protein levels. And, and you know, that's one of the things that led us to red blood cells. Uh, as we worked with a couple companies in the past, uh, and submitted samples to Mike Van Berg and his studies, he worked at Cornell University on digestibility, uh, total tract digestibility of blood meal. Uh, we found a huge variation from 95% all the way down below 40% digestibility.
Matt Budine (31:46):
Well, that comes really problematic as a dairy nutritionist in the field, if you don't know what source of blood meal you're gonna get. But in those 50 to 60 samples that were submitted to, uh, Dr. Mike Van's lab, uh, four of the highest, uh, uh, samples were red blood cell sources. And so we continue to focus on the red blood cell side because of his bioavailability. Uh, and we believe that brings a higher by availability a histamine and lysine and all the other essential amino acids coming with blood meal. Uh, so that's what we really focused our diets on. That allows us to be more concentrated and not have to feed so much, uh, of one ingredient to meet those requirements if we have a higher, uh, bioavailability. And, and so sourcing, understanding the plant where the blood meal comes, you know, kind of having that optimum value supply our agreement and working with those, uh, facilities to make sure you get that source every time.
Matt Budine (32:45):
And that's just not with blood meal. Uh, you know, that's, that's really important with the other animal byproducts, uh, that's using dairy diets, uh, you know, finding high value feather what we call high blood feather meal, that, uh, feather meal that contains a lot of chicken blood into it also has higher levels of histamine, uh, compared to typical feather meal. And the protein digestibility among sources is tremendously different. So having that Optum value supply agreement, uh, with, uh, uh, your sources and, uh, is really important. And, uh, I know for the typical nutritionist, that's really hard to have that. So we create agreements out there in the marketplace to allow our nutritionists in the field from progressive vari solutions to have, uh, those sources readily available to 'em, and our feed mills work with us to get those sources in.
Scott (33:38):
Yeah. Clay sounds like a protected histamine is, is needed. I've, I've heard that a a couple times from both these gentlemen. You said that, uh, first started doing research back in 2008. My calendar says it's 2025, what's taken so long?
Clay (33:58):
The cost of histamine
Dr. Hristov (35:16):
Uh, if I can give my 2 cents, obviously, and I've been talking about this, uh, on, on those, uh, seminars, interestingly enough, uh, swine nutritionists are becoming more and more, uh, interested in histo
Matt Budine (36:40):
Yes, you're, uh, your arms site, right? Just typical feather meal is low in histidine. Uh, and the only way you can enhance the levels of histamine and feather meal is the poultry blood, uh, higher percentage of poultry blood that comes in, because poultry blood meal is, uh, similar to pork blood meal and higher levels of histamine. So, yeah. Well, the other part that I'm excited about that can bring the cost of histamine down, uh, from the synthetic standpoint is, uh, and our fish feeds, alcohol is becoming more popular around the world, and, uh, they have, uh, really identified that as a limited, uh, potential in amino acids, in feeding, uh, our fish and our fish farms around the world. So we, we see optimism, and that's gonna bring that cost down. Uh, it's a, a definitely a nutrient that's getting more attention. And we look at efficiency.
Matt Budine (37:32):
And one of the things that, uh, I really wanna, uh, ask the team here on, on the call here a little bit about is one of the problematic things that we're seeing in dairy, uh, milk processing plants, particularly as we increase the cheese production in the US, is the ratio of fat to protein in our, uh, that we're shipping to our creamery today. So, uh, as we, uh, get and make more cheese, uh, it's really important to have the correct ratio of fat to milk protein. And it, you know, I was told that the optimal ratio to make cheese, and it depends on if you're making cheddar or provolone, but you know, as to how a cow producing four oh butter fat and a three two protein, which gives you the protein is a 80%, uh, of the fat level. Now, as we've changed diets and really enhance these, uh, high protein or high, uh, uh, fat, uh, uh, diets, where now we have Holstein cows given four six, uh, milk fat, and then a 3, 3, 3 4 protein, we have a ratio now that's the protein, 75% or lower of the, uh, butter fat.
Matt Budine (38:48):
And that has really became inefficient for a cheese production facilities because they have to, uh, skim that extra fat off and sell it as, uh, as cream, which in sometimes can be very detrimental to the profitability of the cheese plant. So we're getting dairy producers asking to say, Hey, we wanna be able to increase the milk protein and keep that ratio at 80% level. Uh, one of the things that Dr. Ov you talked about is, you know, unlike lysine, histidine tends to actually increase milk production and milk, milk protein, but doesn't really enhance milk fat, which in the real world might be a great solution to this challenging problem that we have with these high, high butterfat herds. But we have an increased milk protein, and I think the next platform or the next, uh, you know, opportunity for dairy nutritionists is to figure out how to get that milk protein higher, uh, without going so much higher in fat. Uh, how, how do you feel that we can enhance this, uh, in dairy diets today, this challenge that we have, uh, out in the field?
Dr. Hristov (40:02):
Yeah, you brought up the couple of excellent points. Again, this aquaculture business, in fact, that's true, lactation is one of the number one amino acids in, uh, um, aquaculture nutrition. I, I teach here aquaculture, uh, several lectures in my class. And, uh, aquaculture production has been increasing over the years, and it's, there is more seafood from aquaculture than from wild capture in the world anymore. So that will be growing, and his in demand for aquaculture will be growing. Uh, that's almost guaranteed to tell you, frankly, I don't know how we got where we are with this milk fat. Um, I'm not an expert in this. I'm sure it's genetics and genomics and that kind of things, but, uh, clearly that's not good for cheese making. The Italians that I talk to, they are certainly not happy, uh, in the PO valley there feeding those cows and, uh, looking at what is going on here. So, absolutely, um, histamine does not seem to increase milk fat, uh, but does increase, uh, milk protein. So if this is available, uh, definitely is gonna make a difference. That ratio.
Clay (41:23):
That's a good, that's a good point, Matt, because there are some Holstein herds making like a five oh fat now. So to have that ratio, you need a four oh true milk protein. And that's, uh, that I've not seen that yet, not in a Holstein
Matt Budine (42:01):
Yes. And and you're a hundred percent right, and that's why it was coming to our attention in the field. As end dairy nutritions, we have producers come to us and say, Hey, our, uh, milk, uh, supplier, our milk, uh, plants are basically saying anything over that ratio, they're gonna discount the value of that fat. Mm. Uh, so, you know, typically when you have high, uh, you know, butter fat prices, which we've had in the last 18 months, uh, the declined here a little bit recently, but you know, when you have, uh, over $3 per unit of fat, uh, you know, that one point of butter fats yielding 30 cents a hundred weight or more. Uh, and so now if you're all a giving discounted on the units of fat over that 80% ratio, uh, you, you know, now it really changes the economics of how you're, uh, conducting your diet.
Matt Budine (42:58):
So, as nutritionist field, we've been approached with that. We don't have all the answers, but we do know that, uh, the, the amino acid nutrition that we're really focused on is how we can enhance the milk protein percentage and keeping that ratio in line so our dairy producers can maximize your profitability for a hundred weight to milk, uh, with, with their milk processors. And, uh, you know, uh, my, my other question is, is what other, uh, we're talking about limiting amino acids. What's the next generation of other amino acids we could look at outside of histidine? Uh, and what experimental things are you working on at Penn State, uh, and, uh, that you see the industry? What, what's that next step, that next opportunity?
Dr. Hristov (43:45):
Yeah, that's, uh, that's a good question. Uh, Matt, and we have been doing some work here. We have a paper x-ray that's coming in the journal, uh, looking at, um, a whole sorts of amino acids essential and non-essential effect on microbial synthesis, um, in an, in an in vitro system. That, of course, that's, that's the first step with these things. So there, there are maybe something there that also can improve microbial fermentation and microbial synthesis in terms of amino acid nutrition, not tru protected amino acid, but amino acids that are coming with the feed or synthetically, uh, that can, um, enhance microbial synthesis. Um, other than that, uh, you know, know, we've been talking to companies about, uh, rumen protected, um, amino acids, but this, this is still in, in the works, and I don't wanna talk too much about it.
Clay (44:45):
Matt, if you, if you look at the, you know, the 2021 nas, a model for, for milk, for milk protein yield, it was what the five amino acids there are methionine, lysine, histamine, and then it was methionine and isoleucine. So tho those, those were the top five that they'd identified, certainly from milk protein standpoint, but
Dr. Hristov (45:11):
There's a whole bunch of them listed there. Yes. Yeah.
Clay (45:14):
Yep. So it's an exciting area.
Matt Budine (45:17):
Yeah, no, that's very, that is very exciting. Uh, uh, you know, that, you know, that's, you know, the next paradigm shift end dairy nutritionist for our skies in the field to really understand this bypass amino acid. Uh, and, you know, you know, all great research starts with these high fruiting cows, right? We learn in the field, the art of nutrition is the be to adapt to what we're seeing in the field and, and adjusting out there. And then we have great researchers, uh, you know, like Dr. Ov here to kind of, kind of, uh, formalize what really has happened. And, uh, so we feel that we're practicing out in the field here, uh, in this dairy amino acid, uh, nutrition space and, and really exciting that the, the, uh, potential. And when we have these hyper and herds doing as well as they're doing these, these herds are, uh, obviously doing great in all the other things that matter.
Matt Budine (46:12):
They're great in cow comfort. They got great forge quality. Uh, they, uh, their cow care and, and, and their cow time budgets are all really managed at a high level. And so really, the limiting factor becomes the level of nutrition that we provide for 'em. And this is where we're seeing this a tremendous, uh, enhancement in, in, in performance, uh, from a balance from, from amino acids. And the other thing that really helps out is people are really talking about methane mitigation, uh, you know, in, in the world. And we talk about mesh methane mitigation in the intensity of the per hundred weight of milk when we enhance the performance by balancing for am amino acids and getting these high production herds. Uh, like the example we have in our benchmark study where the herds are average on 108 pounds, energy corrected milk, well, that's about a 30% reduction in methane mitigation per unit of, uh, milk. Uh, that's a huge opportunity. Uh, when we look at sustainable agriculture, we look at, uh, what the impact our dairy cows can have on the, the global environment. Uh, we're, we're really excited this is gonna be a future that we're gonna get greater at and better at and understand, uh, in more depth. And, uh, we're really excited. We're part of dairy herds all over the country. We have great dairy families we work with that get to, to really contribute to reducing that methane footprint and, uh, and performing at a very high level. So,
Scott (47:48):
Yeah. Matt, are are there opportunities to monetize that from a carbon credit perspective out there in California?
Matt Budine (47:55):
Well, we think that there is opportunities to monetize it for our dairy producers, uh, all over the world, if really are, uh, the, the global, uh, outlook on reducing, uh, greenhouse gases, particularly methane, is something that we can really have a big impact on in the dairy industry. Uh, not only dairy cows, the greatest up cyclers and, and recyclers, the byproducts that normally would go to landfill, but we're now taking those byproducts and turning them into great proteins, uh, through the, through milk. Uh, and, and the, the reduction of our greenhouse gases, uh, through efficiencies is, is tremendous. But, uh, yeah, I think there is a way to do it. Uh, we have to, uh, to get a process, uh, approved, uh, so our dairy producers can get credit for that reduction in methane. Now we have products out there in the marketplace being proj, uh, positioned out there to, uh, reduce the, uh, overall methane and the dairy diets, uh, you know, methane production from dairy diets and, uh, the intensity stories a real one also. And that if we can actually, uh, reduce methane intensity per milk by 30%, uh, then these dairymen should be rewarded for that. Uh, uh, so yeah, it is gonna take a industry effort to collaborate together and put the systematic approach, uh, to, uh, get this, uh, uh, kind of monetized for our dairy producers
Dr. Hristov (49:31):
And, uh, that that can go both ways. Matt, clearly intensity of the emissions, I mean, we can talk about methane until Christmas here, but intensity is one target. But our work here with raw protein diets supplemented with amino acids, when you reduce protein, you, you have to replace it with something. So we typically, we will replace it with starch, and we have a couple of diets that show this wo protein amino acid supplemented diets that have higher starch, moderately higher starch, moderately woa protein, have a woa methane emissions, uh, in the cow as well. Yep.
Scott (50:17):
Matt, I kinda wanted to circle back. Uh, we talked a little bit about, uh, some of the, uh, countries you guys operate in that don't have access to blood meal and not even high quality blood meal, no blood meal at all. How do you address, uh, amino acid balancing? There are, are there anything, uh, that they can do?
Matt Budine (50:37):
Well, it's, it's, it's very, uh, problematic in those areas of the world, uh, to get the highest level of production because we have less tools to use to get that same high level production. But what we try to do is maximize all those things that are really important, uh, to the cow. And that starts off with cow care, cow comfort, high quality forages, and doing a great job of feeding management. So we have the highest mo real protein yield coming from that rumen, right? So you can maximize that cow's efficiency and microbial yield and, and the cow care and cow comfort. Uh, and then we, you're, we're limited to supplement with BPAs, uh, protein sources coming in, very heavy soy-based, uh, protein sources in these parts of the world. And then we are able to bring in protected lysine methionine, which really the only publicly available sources in those other countries.
Matt Budine (51:34):
Uh, but still there are very limited levels, uh, that being used in Europe, in South America, uh, and in, so it, it becomes, uh, problematic to, to get those high levels. Uh, but we're definitely working on it. We'd love to get a protected histamine source available, uh, that'd be available to those countries, get 'em registered in there, because we think we can move the needle on milk production in, in, uh, in overall efficiencies doing that. So, but, you know, to reemphasize all this supplementation, amino acid is, is for naugh. If we don't do a great job of cow care, cow comfort, uh, forge quality and the meat feeding management and the time budget that a cow, we gotta remove all the hurdles from this cow. Uh, you know, I look at a high cows like a high performing athlete, uh, if you are running a marathon every day, that'd be like a cow producing a hundred pounds of milk each day. The energy requirement, the limitations of your diet, uh, if you're running a marathon, uh, is really critical. Well, that's what it's like for our cows and as nutritious in the field, uh, we're preparing high performing athletes every day. And it's, we're like, we're doing nutrition for a marathon runner. Yeah.
Scott (52:50):
So, yeah. Great comments, Alex, any, uh, big topics that we haven't, uh, covered yet?
Dr. Hristov (52:59):
I don't think so. I, again, the mean acid are related to environment, and I, we, we should understand that if we are talking about the mean acid supplementation of animal diets, in fact, one of the ma apart from productivity, a major goal is the environmental nitrogen emissions. So we should not forget that.
Scott (53:23):
Yeah. Clay, I don't wanna put you on the spot, but I'm going to, uh, right. Histo prices are coming down. Uh, we, we anticipate they're gonna continue to come down. I know that you've modeled the pricing. How close are we getting?
Clay (53:40):
Um, we're getting very close. The, the closest we've ever been by far, so I don't think we're too far away from where we need to be.
Scott (53:50):
Alright. Very well. Yeah. Yep. Well, with that, uh, we'll call, last call. And what I'd like to do is have each of you guys just kind of give us a couple key takeaways that you think the audience, uh, needs to hear from this conversation today. And, uh, clay, I'd like to start with you.
Speaker 6 (54:08):
Tonight's last call question is brought to you by NitroShure Precision Release Nitrogen. NitroShure delivers a complete TMR for the room microbiome, helping you feed the microbes that feed your cows. To learn more about maximizing microbial protein output while reducing your carbon footprint, visit balchem.com/nitroshure.
Clay (54:31):
Yeah. So, um, I love this topic. Obviously we're, we've been very involved in it for a number of years now, so they're obviously are, are, um, great opportunities here to continue to improve, um, efficiency and productivity of these cows. And, uh, and, and, and Histidine is certainly the next Amin on the horizon here. I think so, um, look, looking, looking forward to be able to get some, uh, some more tools out in the nutritionist hands here before too long.
Scott (55:08):
Yep. Sounds good. Matt, you've been a great guest. I wanna thank you for joining us. Uh, do you have any final comments for the, for the audience?
Matt Budine (55:17):
Well, I look at it, first of all, this is, this is a fun topic to be a part of. We're very passionate about it amongst our group. We, uh, work with, uh, a group of nutritionists that all start measuring, looking at histamine. We don't think it's a, uh, uh, uh, it, it is one of those nutrients that it's essential, it's essential nutrient for high production and dairy cows, and we have to learn more about it. And, uh, this, this is just the beginning. And as we look at, uh, lysine, methionine, histamine is one of those essential amino acids. And then we gotta put the next frontier. Is it three lucine? Is it, uh, uh, arginine? Are these the next limiting amino acids? Uh, and what is the essential nutrient level for these? So, uh, as nutritionists look to the future, uh, we see a lot of excitement, a lot of opportunity to enhance our dairy's performance, uh, all over the world. And we're proud to be a part of it. And thanks, uh, for bringing me in for this subject we're pretty passionate about.
Scott (56:22):
Yeah, you're very welcome, Matt. Definitely want to have you back, especially after, once we get the tool out there and you guys have had some experience on it. Uh, we'll, we'll bring you back. We'll have another discussion. Uh, Alex uh, any final comments for the audience?
Dr. Hristov (56:37):
No, I, I will just have to repeat myself again here. When I think about histamine, I think about nitrogen and nitrogen was here, will be here. Uh, we all talk about greenhouse gases and meth, but nitrogen is more important than that. And when we talk about nitrogen will be talking about amino acids and among this high has in is a key, particularly when you are trying to feed, uh, limited nitrogen diets.
Scott (57:10):
Alright, very well. Nice place to stop. Gentlemen, want to thank you for your time, your expertise. Uh, enjoyed the conversation. It's always fun, uh, to our loyal audience out there. Uh, I hope you learned something, hope you had some fun, and I hope to see you next time here. It's real science exchange where it's always happy hour and you're always among friends.
Speaker 6 (57:29):
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