Guests: Dr. Tom Overton, Cornell UniversityCorwin Holtz, Holtz-Nelson Dairy Consultants The last 18 months have been challenging for the ag industry, and we've seen a rollercoaster of milk prices throughout the COVID pandemic. As the world begins to normalize, we can now shift our focus to impacting efficiency and profitability across the dairy operation. Tonight, we’re going to get really practical and dig into ways we can improve milk component production.
Guests:
Dr. Tom Overton, Cornell University
Corwin Holtz, Holtz-Nelson Dairy Consultants
The last 18 months have been challenging for the ag industry, and we've seen a rollercoaster of milk prices throughout the COVID pandemic. As the world begins to normalize, we can now shift our focus to impacting efficiency and profitability across the dairy operation. Tonight, we’re going to get really practical and dig into ways we can improve milk component production.
Corwin describes that he monitors, on a monthly basis, energy corrected milk, pounds of fat, pounds of protein, ratios relative to dry matter intake, what our energy corrected feed efficiency is. He also looks at our component efficiency, pounds of fat and pounds of protein combined, relative to herd average dry matter intake. 7:22
Dr. Tom Overton discussed how components are heritable. This means some of your herds think about genetics and how they also use those strategies to try to improve, not just milk yield, but also component yields over time. 17:08
There is a concern by many, Corwin Holtz shares, that we're probably not pushing up feed nearly as many times a day as what we should. In his opinion, if we're not close to 12 times a day, we're probably not getting the job done the way we ought to be. 38:26
Dr. Tom Overton discusses that all fractions are going to move up or down together when you talk about milk fat protein or total milk fat percentages. He shares that if we're in a milk fat depression type scenario, they all go down, but the de novos go down proportionally more. It helps us identify where that issue may be, relative to saturated fatty acids. 51:20
From Corwin Holtz’s experience, good fiber digestibility; that's the key to any nutrition program and feeding management. He describes that we deal with a lot of overcrowded barns and that's not going to change. But can we get our feeders and feeding management into a routine that we are not slug feeding? Can any cow at any time that wants to go up and eat has the ability to? I think those are two key things that we continue to press with our clients' day in and day out. 58:06
If you want one of our new Real Science Exchange t-shirts, make sure to screenshot your rating, review or subscription, and email a picture to anh.marketing@balchem.com. Include your size and mailing address and we’ll get a shirt in the mail to you.
Please subscribe and share with your dairy industry friends to bring more friends to join us around the Real Science Exchange virtual pub table.
This podcast is sponsored by Balchem Animal Nutrition and Health.
Scott Sorrell (00:00:07):
Evening everyone. And welcome to the Real Science Exchange, the pub-cast where leading scientists and industry professionals meet over a few drinks to discuss the latest ideas and trends in animal nutrition. The last 18 months have been challenging for the ag industry, and we've seen a rollercoaster of milk prices throughout the COVID pandemic. As the world begins to normalize, we can now shift our focus to impacting efficiency and profitability across the dairy operation.. Hi, I’m Scott Sorrell, one of your hosts at the Real Science Exchange, and tonight we're going to get really practical and dig into ways we can improve milk component production. Our first guest is Dr. Tom Overton from Cornell university. Tom, you've been a part of the Real Science Lecture Series in the past, and presented some research on maximizing milk protein. And I believe that was back in June of 2020, but this is your first, uh, first time here at the exchange. So welcome.
Dr. Tom Overton (00:00:58)
Yeah, thanks for the invitation.
Scott Sorrell (00:01:01):
And, uh, you're very welcome. And if you wouldn't mind, could you to tell us what you're drinking tonight and then to kind of give us a, a quick overview of what the listeners can expect to hear tonight?
Dr. Tom Overton (00:01:10):
Yeah. So I've got a gin and tonic here in a thermal mug with one of my favorite sayings from Winston Churchill about never giving up. And I think that's a, a good model for us, not only in, uh, in coming out of a pandemic, uh, the last year plus, but also in the dairy industry as we ride that, uh, it seems like ever, ever going rollercoaster.
Scott Sorrell (00:01:31):
Yes, absolutely. And so, yeah, give us kind of a little bit of a background in terms of what we can expect to hear tonight.
Dr. Tom Overton (00:01:37):
So we're going to talk about milk components and it's an area that has gotten a lot of attention. Um, of course, over the over many years now, uh, in the US anyway, we've been component priced, uh, uh, for, for more than 20 years, I think at this point in time. And, and I, but I think it's an area where we've really made some gains and continue to make some gains. And so we're going to talk about some of the trends over time. Corwin Holtz, who's, who's my guest tonight, we'll talk about some of the science application relative to the factors that affect components at the farm level. Uh, we'll talk about decision-making of course, in the last year, some of these base programs that co-ops have put into place of, uh, you know, throwing a new wrinkle in there. And then, uh, and then we'll talk about some of the newer fatty acid or milk fat or milk composition testing that is now available or becoming more prevalent across the country.
Scott Sorrell (00:02:26):
Very well. Uh, Tom, we're going to put you on the spot. Do you remember when we first met? Probably not. I know.
Dr. Tom Overton (00:02:34):
Well, I know, I know we talked about Mike an Amburg... I'm sure we talked about Mike van Amburg the first time we did that in your collegiate, uh, affiliation, religion.
Scott Sorrell (00:02:41):
Yeah. Well, we, we can tell stories about him, but the first time we met, you know, I'd been hearing about this Tom Overton guy... I'd never met you. And, uh, it was back at the ADSA that was held in Indianapolis and you know, how they have activities before the, the ADSA sometimes a run. This happened to be an organized softball game.
Dr. Tom Overton (00:03:03):
Yeah, I do remember this now. Yep.
Scott Sorrell (00:03:05):
I don't remember when that was clay. You probably remember what year that was?
Clay Zimmerman (00:03:10)
It was in the late nineties.
Scott Sorrell (00:03:11)
Yeah. Late nineties and I show up. And we just kinda, uh, um, you know, split up on teams and I was batting behind you. I, I hadn't yet met you yet. And, uh, first time through the batting order, you smack one over the fence, home run round tripper. And, uh, yeah. Then after I got done with my at bat, I went over and introduced myself and lo and behold, it was the, uh, the fabled Tom Overton. So anyway, that's....
Dr. Tom Overton (00:03:37):
I think it may be the one and only round tripper of my life. How's that? So we'll leave it at that. Scott Sorrell (00:03:43):
It might've been a little league field. I'm not sure. Uh, Tom, you have already introduced your guests then. So Corwin I want to thank you for, for joining us tonight. And we're very interested to hear your on farm perspective on this, uh, first tell us what's in your glass. And do you have any stories you can tell from working with Tom?
Corwin Holtz (00:04:04):
Well, uh, uh, both my wife and I, Debbie, uh, we are red wine drinkers, so, uh, the glass of Merlot, or a red blend or a Malbeck. And, uh, tonight I have a Merlot from Duckhorn wineries out in the Napa valley, actually. Uh, that's where my roots are, is out in the Napa Sonoma area from many years past, been a new Yorker since 1983, but, uh, grew up in the wine country.
Scott Sorrell (00:04:35):
Excellent. And my cohost, Dr. Clay Zimmerman as always is here at the pub again tonight. Clay, how's the hard cider tonight. Bubbly?
Dr. Clay Zimmerman (00:04:51):
Good. Yeah. It’s again watermelon. I'm in another rut.
Scott Sorrell (00:04:54):
Well since we’re in the mood for sharingstories, do you have any, uh, Tom Overton stories?
Dr. Clay Zimmerman (00:05:00):
I do actually, uh, Tom and I share a passion. We are both, um, Boston Red Sox fans. So at, uh, at one point in his life, I think Tom, Tom lived near the, uh, the Friendliesice cream plant in Massachusetts. So yeah, we are, uh, we're both fans of the Boston Red Sox.
Scott Sorrell (00:05:18):
Good deal. Good deal. We'll tell you what, why don't we just dive right into the topics tonight? Um, Tom, how has the focus on milk components changed over the last few years?
Dr. Tom Overton (00:05:30):
Well, I don't remember back when I, you know, one of the things that one of the things has changed is, is I think people are much more thinking about pounds of fat and protein ship per cow, per day, and things like that rather than, or as it as an advancement on, you know, rather than thinking just about milk yield and milk components. And that's been a, that's been a bit of a shift. Um, uh, because I remember when I started long time ago now, you know, people would use high milk production as almost an excuse for poor components, right? They'dsay, well, you know, I've got three, four butterfat and two eight protein, but boy, I'm making 90 pounds of milk and that just doesn't get that, just doesn't get the job done anymore. Then Corwin, I'm not sure what you see out there, whether you're seeing more of that. I think it's still a work in progress in terms of how people think about companies.
Corwin Holtz (00:06:18):
Yes, it's, uh, still a discussion. We continue how with producers, uh, you know, they, they look at, uh, what comes from the milk plant in terms of percent fat and percent protein. That's kinda, what's on their, on their mind all the time. And we always have to keep reminding them. It's really the, the pounds of fat and pounds of protein that are being shipped that are, they're actually paying the bills and, and thus, it just becomes that combination of, of yield and percents. And so, we're, we're trying to, trying to maximize both in most cases. Um, but again, historically, it's been that the producer focuses tended to be on the, on the percent side of the equation and, uh, continual discussions on what what's that fat pounds yield and protein pounds yield.
Dr. Clay Zimmerman (00:07:10):
So Corwin, and I was wondering how you, you're looking at that metric with your producers. Do you look at pounds of fat and protein? Do you look at energy corrected milk? How do you, how do you view that?
Corwin Holtz (00:07:22):
What I, what I'm monitoring on a monthly basis on my, my client herds is, is exactly those three things, energy corrected milk pounds of fat, pounds of protein. And then also looking at a couple of ratios relative to dry matter intakes, looking at, uh, what ourenergy corrected, uh, feed efficiency is. And also our, what I call component efficiency, pounds of fat and pounds of protein combined relative to herd average dry matter intake. So those are the, those are the parameters that we're, we're tracking on a monthly basis.
Dr. Tom Overton (00:08:05):
And actually it's all of our work, you know, those, those two general areas, right, account for about 75% of the herd variation and things like income or eat costs, which really, you know, drives is certainly related to profitability, but are also heavily related to cashflow. So, um, so it makes sense to kind of key in, on some things like that.
Scott Sorrell (00:08:25):
What are the key factors affecting a milk fat and protein production?
Dr. Tom Overton (00:08:29):
Well, there's, there's a bunch of them. Um, and I think that's what makes it kind of interesting. Um, you know, there's, there's a whole bunch of nutritional factors that affect, um, especially, you know, milk fat. Um, we can get into that. We'll get into that in a little more detail here. Um, but there's plenty of non nutritional things: genetics, seasonality, uh, heat, stress, um, other types of things that other major things at the farm level in terms of how we, how cows are grouped or managed that may affect feeding behavior, which then in turn, it can affect what goes on in the rumenand, and, and affect components. So we'll, we'll dive into more of these Scott and over the course of the, the podcast here. So I want to circle back though, just a little bit and talk about it, maybe Corwin, and you can chime in how, how some of your herds are doing or what you see out there.
Dr. Tom Overton (00:09:17):
But, you know, we've been, you know, as pro-dairywe've been, we've been kind of pushing this fat and protein yield per cow, per day for, you know, quite a few years now through things like dairyprofit monitor and things like that, you know, we started, you know, we tell people that, you know, you get to five and a half pounds of fat and protein per cow, per day. Yeah, you do it. Okay. And then people began to kind of start doing that. So when people started doing that, we raised the bar, right. So, because that's what we do. And so then it became six pounds of that protein ship per cow, per day. Then, you know, our, our, you know, the top herds are, are pushing seven pounds of components or more per head per day. And you don't. And again, like we, like, we started out here in this podcast, you've got to do that with a combination of high milk yield and good components to go along with it.
Dr. Tom Overton (00:10:01):
Um, you, you can't get there if you don't have both of those pieces. And a former student of mine actually is a Wisconsin native, uh, large dairyout there. Uh, his herd was making, uh, and he was in my nutrition class. He was making 115 pounds of milk with about a four-one fat and about a three-two protein. And, and I told him, I said, don't let anything, I teach you, mess up what you guys are doing out there, because that's pretty impressive. It was 8.7 pounds of componentsper cow per day. It was pretty amazing.
Corwin Holtz (00:10:32):
Wow. Yeah, I I'd agree with that, Tom. Uh, I think go back a few years ago when we really started talking about this component yield, uh, both from a producer standpoint, a lender standpoint, it's a number that the bankers financial people are, are very much aware of and, and catching onto and looking at as they work with their clients. Um, I think when we really got into this, it was kind of that six pounds of fat and protein. And the herds I'm working with now, our minimum goal is 6.5 and headed towards seven that's kinda where those upper upper end herds are, are definitely shooting for. And then from a feed efficiency standpoint, uh, trying to have a minimum of a, a 1.7 energy corrected milk, uh, feed efficiency across the herd. And then, uh, a minimum of what I call, uh, 11, uh, somewhere between 11 and 12 component efficiency, that'd be pounds of fat and protein divided by the herd average dry matter intake. So those are some of the parameters that we have as, as goals with the client farms that I'm, I'm dealing with these days.
Dr. Tom Overton (00:11:52):
So let's go down the road, Scott, that you were trying to, are you starting us down about some of the factors that affect, uh, you know, milk fat or milk fat and protein. And, you know, when you look at the nutritional factors there, uh, that affect milk fat, a lot of that work was done by, uh, people like Dale Bauman's and his group, you know, continue to be done by people like Kevin, Harvard, team, Adam Locke, and others. So really good scientists out there. And, you know, we've learned a lot about, you know, things that drive butterfat down and, and, uh, you know,ir relates back to how fatty acids are consumed by the cow or metabolized in the rumen. So we get some altered rumen, rumen metabolism, one saturated, fatty acid, especially some linoleic acid, which is the predominant fatty acid found in corn, corn products, oil seeds.
Dr. Tom Overton (00:12:40):
Um, and so, you know, we know if we get too much unsaturated fat, we know if we get lower of a pH, so tended toward acidosis. We know if we get mycotoxin issues, uh, I think, well, yeast issues. So they're definitely forage factors that come into play. You know, we, we've learned that we are more at risk for low milk fat. So, and, uh, we've also learned that if we can change the diet or change some of those factors, we can recover that milk fat and about say milk, fat depression, right? So three, I'll just say 3-4 or 3-3, in a Holstein, you know, we can recover that within 10 to 14 days typically. It's really good at finishing it's like clockwork and I, you know, Corwin, you probably haven't had the rescue too many milk fats lately, but you know, back a number of years ago, when we were learning about all this stuff, it was kind of handy to have an understanding of biology to then kind of guide us a bit in troubleshooting.
Corwin Holtz (00:13:30):
Yeah. I think one of the things that, uh, you know, from a field standpoint that has really come to the forefront, and it goes back many years, but, uh, I think, you know, my focus and I think a lot of the nutritionist focus anymore is, is fiber digestibility in these diets and having, having high fiber [digestibility]. Just Bill, we feed, you know, I tend to feed heavy corn silage diets, uh, 70 to 80% of the forage dry matter base being, uh, being corn silage dry matter. And then the other 20 or so percent being, uh, uh, either grass haylage or, uh, alfalfa, uh, silage. And fiber digestibility from a rumen health standpoint and just having acetate production and everything coming from that side of the, of the, uh, nutrition equation just makes a huge difference. And, um, you know, a focus always every year is timely harvest on, on haylage is, and getting highly digestible corn silage put in, in the fall to, uh, to get the right forage mix. And then we can run these diets at 60 plus percent forage, uh, and get the kind of fiber digestibility that really, really drives a rumen, and, and maximize helps maximize microbial protein production, which is huge particularly on the, on the protein side of the equation.
Dr. Tom Overton (00:15:01):
Yeah, essentially, Kevin Harvateenagain, I mentioned Kevin he's at Penn state, um, did a really interesting study a few years ago where he actually infused acetate into the rumen of the cows and tookmilk fat, and these were within ranges as possible I think with, with, with highly digestible fibers, you mentioned, you know, it took these cows from a three nine to about a 42%, uh, you know, you know, butterfat at the same milk yield. So of course, uh, yields were at the same time. So I think, you know, the cases of highly digital fiber, you know, make sense here, right? Because you can drive some of that. Now that's not going to necessarily rescue a low milk fat. You got other stuff going on there, but in terms of getting a little bit more, I think that makes sense. And that's, what's a logical approach.
Scott Sorrell (00:15:41):
You know, talking about the importance of a high quality forages, Corwin, with you: do you get involved in actually consulting on, on growing the forages and, and the, and the corn?
Corwin Holtz (00:15:52):
I will be the first to say that I'm not an agronomist. I make that very clear, but definitely, uh, trying to team up with the agronomists working on client farms, uh, looking what are our land base will best support. Uh, and then on variety selection, trying to look at varietal choices that’ll yield both, both, uh, harvest yield along with, with high fiber digestibility. And starches still gotta come along with that as far as the corn silageside of the equation. Where I probably get involved in from a day to day standpoint, though, is just consistently having the conversation with clients about timely harvest and getting forward, just put up with the right kind of dry matters, getting bunks put in properly, proper packing, all the things that go into good silage making so that we end up with with forages that deliver the kind of, kind of feed that we as nutritionists can best work with.
Dr. Tom Overton (00:17:00):
So one of the things, too we'll say onmilk fat here before we kind of shift gears to milkprotein. We tend to forget that, or at least I as anutritionist, right? That, that indeed components are heritable, right. AndCorwinI know you've, you've spent some time thinking about genetics or, or maybe some of your herds think about genetics and how, how they also use those strategies to try to improve component yields, um, not just milk yield, but also component yields over time.
Corwin Holtz (00:17:24):
No, no question about it. When we look at it across our client base, uh, those herds that year-round, um, you know, we're going to have seasonal differences. We're going to have seasonal rhythms in both butterfat percent and, and protein percent, but year round the herds that will tend to be at the higher end of both of those protein percent and, and butterfat percent. They have paid attention over the last 10 to 20 years on both percent endyield of butterfat and protein. That's been part of their genetic program. And I think it's an area that in some cases, producers have maybe not paid quite as much attention to, and those herds will differentiate themselves. No, no question about it. Uh, you know, the, the, the 3-8 3-9 herd versus the 4-0 4-1 Holstein herd, I'm a firm believer that a, a fair amount of that many cases is a genetic potential difference, uh, between those herds.
Dr. Clay Zimmerman (00:18:33):
Corwin, have you, uh, along those lines, have you seen any shift away to crossbreeding bringing in some of the colored breed genetics?
Corwin Holtz (00:18:42):
Um, we haven't seen it in, in our client base to a great degree. We have a couple of herds that have gone the ho-Jo route to a certain degree. Um, hasn't hit the Northeast, like it, it has hit the Midwest. Uh, I don't have an answer for why that is, uh, no question that we are seeing more Jersey cows in the dairy population here in the Northeast over the last few years. Um, some of that just lately has been driven a little bit by base programs, um, and land base, uh, issues also. Just, uh, how many cows can, are, can our land base, uh, handle. And so, uh, we have seen some more Jersey activity here in the Northeast, but, but the crossbreed is not hit here quite as much as it has, uh, other parts of the country.
Dr. Tom Overton (00:19:44):
I want to go back to one factor Corwinwhen you mentioned seasonality for a minute and that's that's boy, the seasonality components is highly conserved across year to year. I mean, it may vary a little bit in amplitude one year versus the next, but, you know, when I look at, when I look at data and again, some of the stuff Kevin summarize and things like that, I mean, you know, in the spring time, you know, late winter, early spring, we're gonna start to slide and, you know, you can get, and that's before any meaningful hearstress whatsoever. So it's, it's not really a heat stress deal, at least not initially anyway, but you can get a swing of three points of butterfat high to low, and then recover that in the, you know, in the fall and into the early winter. And, uh, it's gotta be, it's gotta be a frustration that as a nutritionist or at least I know I have discussion with herds. It's about, Hey, just remember you're fighting mother nature here in the spring. You may be sliding in your, in your component percentages, but you're fighting mother nature here to some extent.
Scott Sorrell (00:20:40):
Most producers understand that?
Corwin Holtz (00:20:45):
Uh, they do, but they don't want to, they don't want to happily accept it, is maybe the way to put it. No, quite honestly, Tom, that's a discussion that's going on right now. You know, the three-two proteins are down to the three-ones and that the 4-1, 4-2 fats are down to, you know, the three-nine fives and fours, four-ones. So we're, we're beginning to see that seasonal, seasonal change as we speak here this evening. Um, and it's, it's a conversation that continue to, to have with producers on a yearly basis. Uh, they don't like to hear excuses from the nutritionist, but, uh, hopefully we get the message across that it is mother nature and it isbiology. Um, I think one of the things on the butterfat side that has helped to a certain degree, um, we will, you know, myself, I will vary my, my fat, uh, type of feeding as we come into the spring and summer months, getting more, uh,palmedic, uh, uh, fatty acid into these cows, a Palm oil type fats to see if I can use it, get some direct impact on, on butterfat and, and try to maintain that a little bit better as we go through these seasonal fluctuations.
Dr. Clay Zimmerman (00:22:18):
Do your, do your feeding recommendations vary depending on the economics of fat and protein to the producer?
Corwin Holtz (00:22:28):
Um, they do. Um, I think you start getting protein values down below two and a half dollars a pound of protein. Um, I begin to question maybe some of my amino acid, uh, inclusion into diets. Um, they're easy decisions for me to be chasing protein as you get into that $2 and 80 cents, $3, uh, protein values, um, to be looking hard at, you know, do I have the amino acid profiles, correct on the, on the milk protein side of things. Butterfat where butterfat isn't nearly worth as much, but I think in some cases, in a lot of cases of butterfat, that tends to be more overall nutrition-based. Am I getting the right amount of fiber and digestible fiber into those cows? Do I have a healthy rumen? Um, are we dealing with slug feeding issues? I have a herd right now that we just made some changes in feeding and all, and we've seen a response in, in milk fat due to some feeding management changes, getting more bunk space for cows in a, in an overcrowded pen situation.
Corwin Holtz (00:23:59):
And, uh, you look at some of the work, uh, up at Miner Institute over the last few years and other work that's been done relative to overcrowding and slug feeding. And that's certainly going to have a negative impact, particularly in my opinion, on, uh, on the milk fat side of things. So, uh, I think there are management things, dietary basic dietary things from a fiber and rumen health standpoint that, that I can chase after. And don't have to spend a lot of money on the, on the milk fat side. Uh, maybe quite as much as over on the, on the milk protein side, but that heavier Palm feeding though, uh, has been beneficial to help maintain some of that seasonal butterfat change that we see. And right now, uh, all dry fats are expensive. So feeding a little more Palm really hasn't seen to make a huge economic difference in terms of the overall fat, uh, supplementation in these diets from a, from a cost standpoint,
Scott Sorrell (00:25:07):
How much Palm you trying to get into them Corwin? When is it cost effective?
Corwin Holtz (00:25:10):
When it is be up, uh, anywhere from a half a pound to maybe as high as three cquarters of pound in some herds. Um, my experience with a heavy palms, which is, you know, my experience, I don't know what other nutritionists see, if I go too heavy on the Palm at times, my experience has been it does what it's supposed to do. It goes and makes butterfat. And I have gotten myself in a little bit of trouble in a couple of situations over the years where I've almost gone too heavy on it and lost some body condition on the herd. So I've had to had to balance those two from time to time to make sure that, uh, I'm not, not overdoing it and not, uh, sacrificing some body condition and reproductive performance, et cetera. Hmm.
Scott Sorrell (00:26:01):
You also mentioned that you're manipulating, uh, amino acids to chase the milk protein. Can you give us an idea of, of, uh, what kind of supplements you’reusing and what kind of levels are you looking at?
Corwin Holtz (00:26:15):
Well, trying to, I use the NDS program, so kind of following some of their, their basic guidelines, um, trying to, uh, use some both methionine sources and when the program calls for it, a little bit of lysine supplementation also, basically following some of the basic NDS guidelines, trying to get my methionineratio to ME, up around 1.08, 1.1 in the NDS program has seemed to work well for me. Um, and then tending to be in that two point high, 2.6 low 2.7 lysine to methionine type of ratio. Um, just, you know, basic, uh, CNCPS NDS guidelines, along those lines have worked pretty well. Um, and then you let the cows tell you, and yet you manipulate things from there.
Dr. Tom Overton (00:27:31):
Yeah. Corwin's is using some of the newer work that, you know, Mike Van Amburgh is kind of responsible for where he's kind of integrated in amino acid supply with energy. And I think that conceptually, that's really attractive. Because if you look at the first God, I don't know, 25 years of amino acid balancing for milk protein, it was all about lysine-methionine or, you know, percent of MP, maybe grams, what have you. And, and so that's kind of where the discussions began and ended with milk protein strategies. And yet we know that energy is, is really, you know, protein synthesis is energy driven, you needed to have the aminoacids, but it makes us line it up with energy. And, uh, and so it's been kind of interesting to, to, to, to kind of play with this new approach out there a bit. Um, and, and again, conceptually, as I said, it's, it's quite attractive. So, um, again, we, we, we always seek to, to kind of what would things ahead, right?
Dr. Clay Zimmerman (00:28:27):
I think we see more consistent responses in the field with that approach too.
Dr. Tom Overton (00:28:33):
It would make sense, right? It makes sense then of course, it also goes back to where corn started out, right? It goes back to rumen fermentation, digestible fiber, digesteable carbohydrate, you know, carbohydratedigestibility/fermentability in the rumen, you know, really driving, you know, energy status, energy supply to the cow. So, and, and, you know, you put the amino acids with that and, you know, I think you are set up for a pretty decent response potentially.
Corwin Holtz (00:28:59):
I think the one thing that, uh, that NDS has really pointed out to me, and I know Mike van Amburg is, you know, as, as he talks about the CMCPS approach overall, whether it be India, SRA, MTS, or other programs is, is really knowing what true dry matter intake is in these groups of cows. And, uh, that's something that I've really been tightening the screws down on is, is really paying attention to where these herds are at on a, on a pin by pen TMR, by TMR basis, as far as what true dry matter intakes are to make sure that I get things dialed in as tightly as I possibly can cause huge differences in those programs between that group, that's maybe at 64 pounds of intake versus the group that's 60 pounds of intake. Um, so that's, that's been one thing that NDS has really, really shown me. I've got to gotta really pay attention to, uh, to, to make, make the numbers fit what the cows are telling me at the end of the day.
Scott Sorrell (00:30:10):
So what are some of your better dairyman doing to make sure that they're, they're, they're maximizing dry matter intake? You know, you've heard horror stories of the nutritionist showing up and he got an empty bunk and those kinds of things. What, what are some of the best practices they're employing?
Corwin Holtz (00:30:24):
Well, I don't know how any herd can manage, you know, especially a herd of any kind of size without some kind of a, a, a TMR tracking program on their mixer wagon, whether it be feed watch, or easy feed or TMR tracker or feed supervisor, whatever it might be, you know. Is there, is there good data that, that I, I, as nutritionist have to work with and that their, their feed crew has, uh, has to work with. So that's, that's first and foremost in my book. Asfar as monitoring things, um, I am in the process of getting more and more cameras put in looking over feed bunks. So we can look at them 24 hours a day and make sure that feeds getting pushed up, that we're not shorting cows on feed that we're not having excess refusals. I mean, there's both sides of the equation.
Corwin Holtz (00:31:24):
And I think one of the things that I know we talk about in our group quite a bit is I think we've got to be careful that we don't exceed what dry matter intakes really should be. Um, I know at times, you know, I'll visit with some people and they'll, they'll brag about their 68 pound intakes and their cows are making the same milk is a herd that's got high cows at 62 pounds of intake. I think we can really go overboard in some cases, um, and we’ve got towatch that we're, you know, every pound of dry matter these days is, is not cheap with the current feed costs we have. So again, coming back to that energy, correct bulk relative to feed efficiency is a number that doesn't, in some ways, it doesn't directly pay the bills, but it gives you an idea of what the, what the biology that nutrition is accomplishing on a day-to-day basis. I know the cameras are.... I'm, I'm getting bigger and bigger on those, uh, to make sure that we've got a 24 eye on what's happening at the feed bunk.
Dr. Clay Zimmerman (00:32:45):
So what, so that's a good point Corwin it's from an efficiency standpoint, we could go too far, the other way with, with, with high intakes. So what, uh, what are some, you know, what are some things we can do to maybe improve our milk production efficiency?
Corwin Holtz (00:33:03):
To improve the milk production efficiency?
Dr. Clay Zimmerman (00:33:06):
Yup. Yeah. You talked about that as a metric earlier, right? Your energy corrected feed efficiency. Yep.
Corwin Holtz (00:33:14):
Um, well, I think one of the things that I constantly have a conversation with my clients is, is our herd too young? Um, I think that's one area that I don't, I can't speak to other parts of the country, but here in the Northeast 2.1, 2.2 lactations is about the herd average as we go across the Northeast. It's way too young, way too young. In my opinion, we should be up in the 2.4 to 2.6 average lactation. Um, and that's, that's a constant, uh, a constant conversation I have with clients. Now, in anexpanding herd, yes, you're going to have a younger herd because you're constantly growing the herd, bringing in, you know, two year olds to, to grow the herd and all, but in, in herds that are mature and they are maxed out on, on cow numbers, um, to be running 2.1, 2.2 lactations to me is unacceptable.
Corwin Holtz (00:34:23):
We need to be keeping cows around longer and maximizing lactations per cow as best we can. Um, so that's an area that, that I think has a lot of opportunity and a lot of, a lot of herds because those older cows, we know they, they make more milk plain and simple, and they're more efficient. They're not growing their feed efficiency because of, of not eating it up and growth activity is a as a younger cow would, uh, just a lot of positives there. So that's an area that I focus in a lot with, with my herds that are in that, that static herd size situation, these days.
Dr. Tom Overton (00:35:06):
Early influence too, as to how many heifers you gotta have. Right. Absolutely. I mean, that's, uh, you know, wasn't seemed like it wasn't that long ago where, you know, we'll see maybe not that many fewer heifers than cows on a, on a dairy. And definitely we're seeing that number come down as people think about that. I don't know, you have a sweet spot for where you'd like to be heifers to cows and things like that, but...
Corwin Holtz (00:35:29):
Depending on cull rates in the herd and, and, um, you know, how they do a 60 day cull rates and things like that, I think, uh, I have for inventory anywhere between 65 and 75% of total cow numbers is a very real, real number to, to be or area to be working in. And for a long time, we've had herds at 90 to 110% of heifers to cows. And man, it's a lot of money sitting out there in a heifer inventory. And the problem we've had is that when these servers become static and they, they have those kinds of heifer numbers, um, who gets pushed out, got a fresh heifer. And it's the older cows that get pushed out unless they've really got a market to sell springing heifers, which does it tend to tend to be the case in most cases. So I think there's a lot of opportunity in, in herd age and in average lactation number. So that's good. I contribute to just sheer pounds of fat and pounds of protein going out to out the door, just because those older cows are producing, producing more.
Dr. Tom Overton (00:36:47):
Circle back Corwin, maybe on some, you know, you, you alluded a little bit of it, but, you know, it's certainly something I've run into quite a bit over time is, is, you know, we can focus on, you know, what's on paper for the diet and things like that, but you know, how, you know, how it's either implemented at the farm level and, or other management factors can just make such a big difference, um, in, in outcomes. I mean, I think about, you know, you talked a little bit before about overcrowding and, you know, we know from lots of work at Miner in British Columbia and other places that, you know, in Gwelf or Trevor DeVries, you know, cows that are overstock, they slug feed, you know, that certainly has an impact on the, on the rumenenvironment. Um, I think about dairies that, you know, uh, say we're going to, we're going to feed to a zero, zero slick bunk right, zerorefusal.
Dr. Tom Overton (00:37:34):
And they combine, you know, I figured out I've got one dairy in my head from a few years ago that they can never, they were never going to make components. Right. And, and it frustrated them, but, you know, they were 30% over crowded in a, in a six row Bart configuration. Um, you know, they were, and they were feeding to a, to a slick bunk. Or trying to feed toa slick bunk. Now, again, I think it's questionable how well dairies can really do that. Um, you know, and, and so, you know, you just end up in situations where you're, where we have on-farm factors that are affecting how those cows are consuming feed and probably impacting that rumen environment. And, uh, um, again, it sounds like, you know, you’d certainlymake progress on that. Cameras seem like a great idea in a lot of cases, you're trying to, trying to manage some of that. Of course, obviously our, our feeding management software systems can, can really help us there too.
Corwin Holtz (00:38:26):
Yeah, and I think we probably, in a lot of cases, I know some of the work that Trevor Devrieshas done, um, on a lot of herds, we're, we're probably not pushing up feed nearly as many times a day as what we should. Uh, I think that the common thought process, if we push it up six times a day, that probably will cover us. It's, if you really want to have healthy cows that are going to be efficient. And, uh, especially in these overcrowding situations, you're probably looking in my opinion with, with the research work that's been done out there. And just what I see on client farms. I work with, that if we're not at close to 12 times a day, we're probably not getting the job done the way we ought to be
Scott Sorrell (00:39:13):
Corwin, how are those cameras being monitored?
Corwin Holtz (00:39:16):
Well, um, the camera system there, they are basically a continuous recording. You can pretty easily with thesystems I'm seeing now, you can go back, you know, two days, three days, you can go back 10 hours, you can go back 12 hours and just a, a matter of taking the time to do it. So, um, you know, trying to get managers do it, uh, to their benefit is, is certainly part of the discussion. And then when I'm on the farm, uh, you know, I'll certainly spend a little bit of time just taking a look at the last last couple of days, uh, that just see what the activity has been like. Um, there is a system out there now, um, it's been brought to the attention of a couple of my clients. Uh, neither one have moved on it at this point in time, but I know there's some systems out in California and in other parts of the country where it's, it's basically a minute by minute, 24 hour a day, uh, feed monitoring, uh, camera system. Um, and I think that kind of technology is, is probably going to be more common as we goforward here. Uh, just a matter ofproducer's trying to justify the cost of those kinds of systems. But I think, uh, as, as we see more of those types of things come along more, that technology will all come into place. I'm sure.
Dr. Tom Overton (00:40:55):
Corwin,one of the things you and I have talked about is, uh, you know, of course every year seems to bring a new wrinkle, the last year brought a really big wrinkle, but, you know, with, with COVID and changes in milk diet and dynamics of milk supply and things like that, of course, you know, most of the milk in the Northeast is now under some sort of base program and, you know, curious on your perspectives in terms of how that's affecting, how you think about components anyway, in major components of the herd level.
Corwin Holtz (00:41:22):
In the last two weeks, I've had conversations with two different clients, both shipping to the same co-op asking me, how do we reduce milk production by a couple of pounds per cow, per day? I can honestly say in the many years I've done this, I've never been asked a question like that. And it's always, how do we get two more pounds out of these cows, not how do we reduce production? Because the penalty they're getting for that over-based milk is pretty severe. So, you know, our, our approach is definitely, again, this focus on components, every pound of milk that goes out there, how can we have the best value to it relative to percent offat and percent of protein in it? Um, I am not in a position at this point in time to make drastic changes in diets that I'm going to say is going to reduce milk by one or two pounds per cow.
Corwin Holtz (00:42:24):
Um, that's not an easy, easy thing to do from a biology standpoint. Um, but, you know, we're trying to... the changes I'm making in those herds though is very slow increments, little more forage, a little, little less starch, um, maybe a little less MP. I'm not shortening them on the MP at this point in time, probably doing it more over on the start side of the equation. A little more forage in those diets, and we're just gonna do it slowly and incrementally and, uh, see what the, see what the cows tell us. Uh, so that's kind of been the approach at this point in time. And, you know, we get the double whammy of, uh, of high commodity prices on the corn protein side of things too. So helping to cheapen those diets up just a, just a touch at the same time. But, a very, very different, uh, dynamic that we've been in for the last 16 or so months of, uh, of these base programs. And not that we weren't focusing on components before, but definitely putting more of a focus, uh, due to the base program, uh, issues that we were dealing with now.
Scott Sorrell (00:43:47):
Wouldn't it be more efficient just to kind of reduce the cow population a bit and, you know, maximize their output?
Corwin Holtz (00:43:55):
And that's, that's, that's a good question, Scott and yeah, so I've got, I've got the smallest herdI work with 250 cows. Uh, we, we were 90, 99.2 pounds of milk shipped last month. And the co-op they ship to is, is a severe penalty on their over base milk. They sold a few cows. They, they did sell a few cows. Another co-op with a different base program. Um, we're still on the over based penalty, we're still able to cover our variable cost. So the producers look at, do I really want to cut cow numbers, uh, toanything severe because the penalty just isn't that great relative to what my, my variable costs are on a day in and day out basis. Um, when this all came about in March of 2020, yes, we did go through and there were definitely some culling activities took place early on, and there were probably cows that should have been shipped even before the base program came about.
Corwin Holtz (00:45:16):
But, as we've seen in the past with milk diversion programs and other programs, we sold 45 cows within 15 days. And the milk tank didn't change. And I told you what overcrowding was doing. Um, so yeah, these and the other problem is, the real dilemma and all this for the producers, in my opinion. And I think they would say the same thing. Cause they said this to me, is they don't know, month to month or what 2022 is going to bring. So if I sell 200 cows and then all of a sudden the program goes away, well, I've just shot myself in the foot because there is no idea of what the, what next month or what the next six months or what the 12 months is going to bring relative to these space programs.
Scott Sorrell (00:46:12):
Yeah, that's going to be my next question. Is this the new normal, do we, do we have a clue or at least any, any theories Tom on, on, or Corwinon what we can expect in the future with these base programs?
Corwin Holtz (00:46:25):
I, I don't have a clue, Scott, I don't, and I don't think my producers could tell you they have a clue either.
Dr. Tom Overton (00:46:34):
Yeah, Scott, I don't have any inside knowledge, but you know, I think that, you know, there's been, I think, I think once there, now that they're in, right. I think they're in. I think the co-ops are going to vary them based on, you know, they can, they can, you know, you know, they can, they can move the dial up and down. Right. But I think, I think the fact that they're in, I don't think they're going anywhere, but that's just, that's just conjecture and opinion.
Corwin Holtz (00:46:57):
Uh, I, I would tend to agree with that, that sentiment, Tom. I think the one thing that I definitely at this point in time is we are not going to see any expansions of any, any sort here in the Northeast.
Scott Sorrell (00:47:13):
Clay. I think we need to find maybe a, a milk processor to bring onto the exchange some night and, and talk about this.
Corwin Holtz (00:47:21):
Would totally wholeheartedly support that. Cause that's your word. That's the way we are, where we are missing the boat here is we need milk processing capability to handle what we can do here in the Northeast. Absolutely.
Dr. Tom Overton (00:47:34):
So one of the things that we're seeing, you know, I, you know, I sit in my Morris hall office and I could, if I'm in that office, I can look over it. Uh, food science and Dave Barbinos there and Dave's been, been making a lot, a lot of, uh, a lot of, um, uh, drawing attention to, and really developing, uh, I would say enhanced milk compositiontesting, right? I mean, we've gotten things like fat and protein and milkier and nitrogen and total solids and the lactose for somatic cell for, for, for eons. But now we're getting more detailed testing anyway. And so we're actually talking about the fatty acids fractions. So things like Denovo fatty acids, and fatty acids, meaning mammary gland from, from, uh, you know, basically from the rumen from things acid production in the room in the colon, talked about, uh pre-formed, which come from the diet marginally a little bit body fat, potentially in a fresh cow and mix, which are really in two different places.
Dr. Tom Overton (00:48:33):
And so, you know, that's becoming more and more prevalent out there. Um, and at this point, a pretty good chunk of the herds in the Northeastern areareceived that information. So, um, you know, one of the things, and I know Corwin and I've wrestled with this a little bit, I think, you know, um, you know, is herds are starting to get it, but a minor is just done some nice work in collaborative with Dave and has shown their, you know, their relationships. So things like toDenovofatty acids and others with not only with milk fat but also milk protein and people are increasingly looking at Denovos maybe as an indicator of rumenefficiency, maybe rumen health, but certainly just how well are we doing on those rumens?
Scott Sorrell (00:49:11):
You know, you know, if you don't mind before we kind of get dive into that, Dr. Zimmerman the other day gave me a very nice succinct tutorial, uh, talking about the difference between Denovo and consume fatty acids and how they're built that really, uh, solidified it in my mind, helped me understand it a bit. I was just wondering if he might, might kind of share that with us.
Dr. Tom Overton (00:49:34):
Go for it, clay. Cause I’d, I’d like a succinct way to explain it.
Dr. Clay Zimmerman (00:49:40):
So Scott, to answer your question, the, these Denovo fatty acids are, you know, they're actually built in the mammory gland, using either acetate or beta hydroxybutyrate as their, as the skeleton to start with. And then we addtwo, you know, two carbons at a time. So basically anything from, you know, four carbons up to 16 carbons can be formed in the mammary gland. They're your Denovo fatty acids. So as Tom alluded to earlier, when he's talking about Kevin Harvard teams research, if we can increase acetate production, you know, good rumen function will increase denovo fatty acids in the milk. The preform fatty acids then are your 16 and 18 carbon fatty acids. So they come either directly from the diet, or as, as Tom said earlier, they're, they're from adipose tissue mobilization inthese fresh cows. So your C-18's, we know, you know, those are pre-formed fatty acids, everything up to 16 carbon fatty acids. We know our Denovo and your C sixteens come from both sources. So there we refer to those as, as the mixed fatty acid pool, your C sixteens. Yeah. So Tom, the, what should we do with this information? There's new information now, coming out to these dairy producers andnutritionists, what, what do we, how do we utilize this information?
Dr. Tom Overton (00:51:17):
Yeah, I think to, to me anyway, um, I mean, granted, you know, these fractions are all going to correlate with total milk fat percentage, right? They're all going to kind of move up and down together. You know, that said, if we're in a situation of, of the more milk-fat depression type scenario, they all go down, but the Denovos go down actually proportionally more. And so, you know, it kind of helps us identify where that, where that issue may be, um, or at least, and there's some other indices that they, that they get relative to on saturated, fatty acids. And they actually help us troubleshoot that a little bit further. Just dial that on either a bit further. You, I'm curious as, as again, as ourherds have that information, right. We're getting into summertime now, it's overtime. That was 90 degrees here, uh, last week and humid, um, you know, our herds that are there in more heat stress scenarios, um, are, you know, are we going to use those as kind of a gauge in terms of how much of an impact we might be having on those rumens in that, in those heat stress environments?
Dr. Tom Overton (00:52:17):
Again, I don't know that for sure, but I think it's worthy to kind of think about that and maybe use that at the herd level to be able to, to compare herds with each other relatives. Okay. When herds changed a lot in these, in some of these metrics and others may not change as much, uh, if we're not seeing the same swings inenvironment or feeding management or things like that.
Dr. Clay Zimmerman (00:52:38):
There, there is, there is a seasonal variation in Denovos that follows the regular seasonal protein percent, correct?
Dr. Tom Overton (00:52:46):
Correct. Right. Yeah. If you look at Kevin's work, right. I mean, the, the, you know, look at the seasonal variation, a lot of that is, is tied to Denovo and probably the mixed pool, less so with the pre-formed, and that's kind of interesting. So, you know, it does look like there may be some again, why that is. That's a good question. Um, uh, you know, because you don't know as you have, I mean, I don't know, as I think about rumen function changing in the spring early spring anyway, um, obviously you can make the case in the heat stress, uh, scenario that you might see some changes there, but it's, it's something where, you know, it's like everything else is you have the information and we all wrestle with it, um, going forward, we learn more about exactly how we use it. And in fact, how useful, you know, how useful it is and what it helps us do at the herd level.
Corwin Holtz (00:53:35):
It’s funny as you say that Clay, because I was just looking at, what am I heard this morning that Tom was actually out on, on with me, this, this past winter and, and, uh, that herd during the winter and umup until probably a month ago, our Denovos 0.92 to 0.98, just day in and day out. And I looked at him this morning and I'm down to the low to mid 0.8’s. I'll be walking those cows tomorrow. I'm really curious. And have I made any major diet changes or anything? No. Uh, so I'm, I'm curious to go walk the cows tomorrow and see if I see anything. Yes. Thosedenovos have come down. Um, you know, fat has gone from 0.41, .412 to 0.40. You know, in that same timeframe there. But boy, I was really shocked how much thedenovo levels said had dropped. Um, and this is actually, in my opinion, probably one of my better heat, stress managed herds: sprinklers, lots of fans and all. Uh, so I'm, I'm, I'm still scratching my head a lot about what some of those numbers are really telling me day in and day out. And, and what do I do with them from a, a dietary change standpoint? I'm not there yet.
Dr. Clay Zimmerman (00:55:04):
Yeah. A, it's an interesting topic, another, another tool in the toolbox potentially, but we need to learn more. I think we need to learn more about what to do with the data. So Tom, you can help us out there.
Dr. Tom Overton (00:55:17):
So, you know, Heather Dan's done some nice work there, right? So Miner's done some nice work where they, you know, where if you get the combination of the low butterfat test, plus the little Denovo, that's clearly kind of a milk fat depression type scenario and kind of know how to get out in that direction. Um, you know, if it's high butterfat tests and high Denovo, we, you know, you know, things Heather would say keep up the good work. Right. Uh, but when you say low Denovo yet pat test is decent. Well, you know, are you, are you buying some of that butterfat with, you know, some of the dry fats and things like that, and is there an opportunity to do better in the rumen? Um, you know, likewise, if butterfat is, is, is just kind of okay, butdenovosare high, maybe there's an opportunity for some, some of the high Palm fat sources and things like that. So I think there's, you know, that's really her, I'm just presenting what she's really conceived there, but it's kind of resonated with me and it's, I think it's a good starting point, but, you know, um, you know, again, we, we just, as we, as we get this information, I'm more and more herds. Um, we'll be able to, to understand how and where to use it, I think, even better.
Corwin Holtz (00:56:27):
And low of how much Tom is aware of it and make you aware of Clay. I knowAdjestma Car up at the vet school here at Cornell is a, she's looking at working with Dave Barbeno on looking at that type of information from a, a herd health standpoint too. So it'll be interesting to see what Jess and her group, uh, you know, if anything comes out of that, the herd health side of it relative to some of this data,
Scott Sorrell (00:56:54):
Gentlemen, time has flown by and, uh, they just called last call. Are there any, uh, any key items that, that, that you guys would like to discuss before we, we close this out?
Corwin Holtz (00:57:07):
No, I just, I appreciate the invitation Scott and Clay. Uh, this is a, this is a good conversation this evening. Uh, it's, it's been an eye opener for me over the last few years that, uh, how much components, uh, when you talk to the bankers that we work with, um, you know, look at the milk checks that our clients deal with. You're looking at fat and protein making up, uh, depending on the year and the time of the year, anywhere from 85 to, I think, upwards of 90 to 93% of their milk check. So this is, this is huge from a financial standpoint and then something that we've, we've got to just continue to pay attention to within the industry, to, to make the, the financial side of the equation more positive for these guys.
Scott Sorrell (00:57:58):
Any final thoughts for nutritionists and dairy men out there, a couple of takeaways you'd like to leave with them?
Corwin Holtz (00:58:06):
Uh, good fiber digestibility. To me, that's the key to any nutrition program. And feeding management. Keeping, you know... we deal with a lot overcrowded barns here. That's not going to change like, can we, can we get our feeders and feeding management into a routine that we are not slug feeding, that any cow at any time that wants to go up and eat has got the ability to do that? I think those are, those are two key things that we continue to, to press with our, our clients day in and day out,
Scott Sorrell (00:58:46):
Tom, a couple of things from you, uh, key takeaways for the audience? And then I want to give you an opportunity to talk a little bit about the upcoming Cornell Nutrition Conference when that is, and, and, uh, why someone would, might want to come to that, which is one of the premier nutrition conferences in the country, by the way.
Dr. Tom Overton (00:59:04):
Yeah. So, you know, again, just understanding that, you know, components really key in, on component yields. Um, and feed efficiency as Corwin talked about component efficiency. Um, it's, it's really, really important. Lots of things affect that. Um, you know, I think herds need to recognize that as we talked about with seasonality, you're fighting biology, certain parts of the year. Um, and sometimes holding steady, steady is actually a win, right? During some of these parts of parts of the year. And so, you know, and I think, you know, those are, those are some key things. Um, you know, I think, you know, relative to the Cornell Nutrition Conference, we are excited to be in person this year. Uh, so we will be October 19th to the 21st, I think arethe dates, in Syracuse. It's the usual, Tuesday through Thursday, uh, format that we traditionally have done.
Dr. Tom Overton (00:59:57):
Um, of course New York is opening up quickly on lots of things relative to COVID, uh, restrictions and things like that. Um, and I expect things to leave more open by, by then. We are planning to do, uh, a virtual kind of live stream of the conference as well, for those in other parts of the world or otherwise wouldn't, uh, either might not be able to attend, um, or would like to attend, but just wouldn't attend in person. But I don't think that's going to take too much away from our in-person audience. I think we're ready to be, um, ready to be, not in front of computer screens, um, all the time and have the chance to interact with each other as, as the networking is, is, is such an important part of those conferences and events. And we're really looking forward to getting back to that.
Scott Sorrell (01:00:40):
Yeah. Excellent. Well, gentlemen, I want to thank both of you, uh, for joining us here to exchange night. This has been a, a lot of fun. I could stay here all night and, and, and talk with you, gentlemen, uh, you know, impacting dairy farmer profitability is so important. It's, it's always changing and, and bringing this kind of information is very important. So we appreciate you for that. And, and we'd like to bring you back sometime if you guys are open to it- the pub is always open. Um, so I'd also like to thank our loyal listeners for stopping by to the exchange, uh, once again, to spend some time with us. And if you like what you heard, please remember to drop us a five-star rating on your way out. Don't forget to request your Real Science Exchange t-shirt. And I think gentlemen, you guys should both have one of those on the way. If you haven't received it already, don't forget to subscribe to the real science exchange on your favorite podcast platform. Our real science lecture series of webinars continues with ruminant focused topics on the first Tuesday of every month, visitanh.marketing@balchem.comto see upcoming events and past topics. We hope to see you next time here to Real Science Exchange, where it's always happy hour, and you're always among friends.