Guests: Dr. Greg Aldrich, K-State University, Dr. Amanda Dainton, K-State University, Dr. Heather Acuff, K-State University, Krystina Lema Almeida, K-State University In this episode, you’ll feel like we're back on campus because we've gathered together some of the top minds in the Kansas State University pet food program for this week's pubcast. The discussion started at our very first research showcase webinar, which aired on March 16th. We'll feature other university programs going forward. And if you'd like for us to consider showcasing your university program, simply email us anh.marketing@balchem.com. To find a recording of the K-State showcase webinar, go to www.balchem.com/realscience.
Guests: Dr. Greg Aldrich, K-State University, Dr. Amanda Dainton, K-State University, Dr. Heather Acuff, K-State University, Krystina Lema Almeida, K-State University
In this episode, you’ll feel like we're back on campus because we've gathered together some of the top minds in the Kansas State University pet food program for this week's pubcast. The discussion started at our very first research showcase webinar, which aired on March 16th. We'll feature other university programs going forward. And if you'd like for us to consider showcasing your university program, simply email us anh.marketing@balchem.com. To find a recording of the K-State showcase webinar, go to www.balchem.com/realscience.
Dr. Greg Aldrich discussed some of the successes and careers his students have found in the pet food industry after going through the program at K-State.
22:15
Dr. Heather Acuff gave advice, to future students, to ask their professors about programs they are interested in joining. Also, nobody needs to tell themselves they are too old to go back to school.
25:39
Dr. Amanda Dainton discussed the option of internships and immersive experiences for college students.
26.59
Dr. Heather Acuff discussed probiotics and their possible benefits. As well as integrating vitamins and minerals versus consumers having to worry about doses and mixes for their pets.
41:27
Krystina Lema Almeida discussed sustainability, product variety and ingredients in the pet food industry. 54:53
Dr. Greg Aldrich discussed how protein will be the biggest challenge for the pet food industry moving forward. With a growing world population, the pet food industry will have to embrace different varieties of protein. 56:21
If you want one of our new Real Science Exchange t-shirts, make sure to screenshot your rating, review or subscription, and email a picture to anh.marketing@balchem.com. Include your size and mailing address and we’ll get a shirt in the mail to you.
Please subscribe and share with your animal health industry friends to bring more friends to join us around the Real Science Exchange virtual pub table.
This podcast is sponsored by Balchem Animal Nutrition and Health.
Scott Sorrell (00:07):
Good evening everyone. And welcome to the Real Science Exchange, where industry professionals meet over a few drinks to discuss the latest ideas and trends in animal nutrition. Tonight, I feel like we're back on campus because we've gathered together some of the top minds in the Kansas State University Pet Food Program. For this week's pub cast, we'll continue the discussion started at our very first research showcase webinar, which aired on March 16th. The research showcase featured three graduate students who presented Ted-talk style presentations, giving the audience a look into the newest research taking place in the pet food arena. We'll feature other university programs going forward. And if you'd like to for us to consider showcasing your university program, simply email anh.marketing@balchem.com. To find a recording of the K-State showcase webinar, go to balchemanh.com/realscience and scroll down to the past webinar lists. Hi, I'm Scott Sorrell. One of your hosts for the Real Science Exchange tonight, we have a full house and we've had to pull, pull up a few extra chairs around the table. Starting with Dr. Greg Aldrich, one of the founders of the pet food program at K-State. Welcome Greg. First, tell us what's in your glass. And then please introduce this impressive group of graduate students that you've brought with you here tonight.
Dr. Greg Aldrich (01:25):
Well, Scott, thank you very much for the invitation for this evening's activity. And so as a true grain scientist, I'm drinking something that's a little bit corn and a little bit wheat-ed, it's a Weller's on the rocks. And so it's a great way to start the evening-I appreciate it. So with me my students this evening are Krystina Lema. Krystina is a master's student, comes to us from Ecuador. With us as well as Amanda Dainton. She's a PhD student has just finished up with her defense and she is originally from Connecticut and with her as well as HeatherAcuff. And Heather also finished her defense this last week. So all three of them are now officially to the point that they are completed their dissertation or, or their thesis. And they're getting ready to move on to the next part of their career. And Heather comes to us originally from California, vis-a-vis Texas. And so each of them has been a big part of our program here for the last two/three plus years. And Amanda even was here for four years as an undergraduate before that. And so with that, I'm going to hand it back over to you and to them to, to see if they'll say a few things on their behalf. And tell us a little bit about what they're sipping on this evening.
Scott Sorrell (02:44):
All right. Sounds good. Amanda, let's start with you. What what are you enjoying tonight and tell us a little bit about something about yourself.
Dr. Amanda Dainton (02:53):
Absolutely. So I am drinking a Gewurztraminer, the white wine and my little tumbler here. And something interesting about myself. I've been a pet person my entire life mainly with cats growing up and have a little cat now.
Scott Sorrell (03:10):
Oh, very nice. And Krystina, would you mind introducing yourself and telling us a little bit about yourself, maybe how you came to choose K-State as a program?And what are you enjoying tonight?
Krystina Lema (03:25):
Sure. Yeah. Thank you for inviting me here. I'm actually having a moscow mule, so I ordered some ginger beer and mixed it with vodka. It’s very good. Yeah I joined the K-State program in 2018, and actually my background is in food science, so I joined the program to learn about food processing. I chose this program because I have always been surrounded by animals. I actually own two cats and they livehere with me.
Scott Sorrell (04:05):
Very nice. And Heather, how about yourself?
Dr. Heather Acuff (04:09):
So I'm Heather Acuff,and as Dr. Aldrich introduced, I'm a PhD student who's just finished up my program and I'm very pleased to be enjoying my beverage tonight, which is a Pinot Grigio from Italy. It's a 2019 Peter Zimmer wine, and it's a nice fruity flavor. So perfect for entering into the summer months coming up here of. I chose our K state program primarily because it's a really good cross-disciplinary focus for all of the subject matter that we get to study. So everything from food processing to animal nutrition, working with animals, and working with analytical chemistry. So it has a little bit of everything. It's a lot of fun.
Scott Sorrell (04:45):
Yeah. Excellent. So welcome everybody. It's, it's nice to have you here this evening and looking forward to our discussion at my side, his co-host tonight is Dr. Eric Altom. Eric, you've earned degrees at Tennessee, Clemson, Auburn....So I'm sure you kind of know your way around some college pubs. So so with that, what's in your, what's in your glass tonight?
Dr. Eric Altom (05:06):
Well at Tennessee tech, as it was in Putnam county at the time, my dad was the pastor of the First Baptist Church and technically it was a dry county, so I'm not going to let any let any secrets fly there. Perhaps then there was a different story. There is a pagar time, and I've been there numerous times and in Auburn I can say that they knew me by my name to some degree at the supper club, but I'm somewhat reformed. So I'm drinking ice tea that way in case anybody needs bail money or someone to speak to the judge: I'll cover. Okay. I'll take care and I'll cover for it.
Scott Sorrell (05:49):
Designated driver- yup. Eric, I'm not as reformed as you are. So tonight I'm enjoying a Bazell Hayden. Hayden's it's, it's one of my favorite bourbons and so that's what I'm having tonight. So cheers, everybody welcome to the Real Science Exchange, appreciate you coming. So Greg let's jump right into it. How and why you helped start the Pet Food Program at K-State.
Dr. Greg Aldrich (06:13):
Thanks, Scott. The, the how and the why is, seems like it's steeped in a lot of ancient history, but it goes clear back to about 2001 when I was having a discussion with the department chair in Animal Science here at K-State, and I happened to be working for a pet food manufacturing firm in the state of Kansas. And we got into a discussion about the notion of whether or not we should have something in along the lines of companion animal, nutrition, companion animal management, pet food science here at Kansas State University. As a little context, I'm a K-State alum and I did my bachelor's here. So it's a place that's near and dear to my heart. And so, through that conversation, we, we kind of came up with a number of different ideas but nothing really seemed to stick, forward about 10 years.
Dr. Greg Aldrich (07:04):
And I had been a consultant for a number of those years as an independent formulator, nutritionist, tech service provider, a new product developer, for a number of startup companies. I was coming over here to Manhattan, living in Topeka at the time, and I was using the extrusion lab and some of the other laboratories here on campus to help with prototype development for some of my clientele. And again, we continue conversations with the faculty, this time more towards the grain science department, which is where we house Feed Science and Management, Baking Science, and Milling Science. And we had this conversation at that point about the opportunity to potentially expand the Feed Science Program. That's manufacturing food items for animals, but mostly for livestock. And the department had an interest in enhancing that program and bringing in students that might have an interest in companion animal foods.
(08:08):
And so they asked me to teach a class in 2011. The faculty Dr. Sajid Alavi and a few others got together, and we started planning out a curriculum. And from there 2012, they asked me to join the faculty as a professor. And the rest of it's been a building process ever since. So it's been a grassroots effort, more or less, started and kept moving through various initiatives by faculty, including myself, but a whole bunch of others in Animal Science, Engineering, Veterinary Medicine. Even done some work with some folks in Agronomy, and Chemistry, and Business. And so the idea is, it's using a cross campus platform here to create a program that is focused on pet food, the food side of the equation, rather than the nutrition and animal exclusively. And the, the rationale for why I think that's important is simply because that's a gap.
09:14):
There are a number of programs in Animal Science departments that are focused on nutrition, but almost nothing that is focused on the food side of the equation as a starting point and a that's where I lived as a nutrition consultant and seems to be where we have had a nice home and a lot of support from industry partners like Balchemto keep this program rolling and growing.
Scott Sorrell (09:42)
And how many students do you have in the program right now?
Dr. Greg Aldrich (09:45)
Today, graduate student wise. We have 15 on the, on the the role. Of course, you're going to see three of these ladies leave us pretty soon. So the number's going to go down pretty quickly. And we have about 10 undergraduates. The program was originally started focused on the graduate students and over time, we're trying to shift that focus a little bit and increase the awareness and opportunities for undergraduates as well. And you'll see those numbers start to go up. So today we're running about 25. We hope to get to about 40 to 50 in the next 5to 10 years.
Scott Sorrell (10:21):
What is the typical path to the, to the program, and then through the program. And then I'm going to ask each of the young ladies to maybe kind of describe their path.
Dr. Greg Aldrich (10:29):
Well. So, for the graduate students, the path has been as, as diverse as you can probably even imagine. So we've had a young folks that have come in through agricultural engineering, and we've had several that have come in through veterinary medicine. We've had a number of students that were our grain science students, like Amanda, that was Feed Science and Management as her undergrad. We've also had a number that have come in through Food Science and Animal Science. So it's been a pretty wide array. Most of the time when a student approaches and, and by the way, I've been just, just terribly blessed. I've never really had to go out and recruit very hard, because this is such a passion-based area that you'll find that with talking with the students there, they have a passion for being in the food side of the equation and the animal side. And so I've never really had to recruit hard, but when students come here, that's, that's the first thing I really try to gauge is whether they have a passion or the energy, enthusiasm, dedication to working in this area. And from there, it doesn't matter what their background is. We'll make it work.
Scott Sorrell (11:35):
So, Krystina, I think you kind of shared your path a little bit, but want you to just kinda explain that to us once again?
Dr. Amanda Dainton (11:44):
Yeah, sure. So I did my undergrad in Food Science and Technology. So actually, in my undergrad, I had the exposure to many different processing facilities. From milk tomeat, and also the grain. And we also get to manage a lot of the animals, especially livestock. But when I graduated, actually I had the opportunity to join the feed industry. And I really liked at that point, I was focused on the agriculture species, but my passion has always been companion animals. So then I started looking for options and actually you can realize, like, there are very few alternatives of of these career. That is very interesting because Kansas State is that top program in the pet foodindustry in the Grain Science Department. And that's when I come to Dr. Aldrich, and here I am. I am completing my master's now. Yeah. And I hope to join the industry soon. Thank you!
Scott Sorrell (12:53):
Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Heather, How about your path?
Dr. Heather Acuff (13:00):
Oh gosh, I'm a non-traditional student. So I'm a little older, which means my paths a little longer and in some ways, a lot more crooked. I started out as a young girl, always wanting to be a veterinarian. I had what was called vet school tunnel vision. There was never any other answer to the question of what you wanted to be when you grew up other than being a vet. And so, when I got through my bachelor's program in pre-veterinary medicine, did a few internships and small animal clinical. I just took a step back. I didn't feel like it was quite the right fit. Vet school financing kind of made me nervous and I just didn't see myself in in small animal clinical care. I was really trying to get into the zoological animal side of the business. And there just, wasn't really a lot of opportunity there at the time.
(13:43):
So instead of applying to vet school, I decided to apply to a pet food company that was based out in California, where I'm from. And I got to work there with their animal nutritionist that they had. They formulated a line of zoological diets. So already for carnivore animals. I was, you know, helping to ship out product to zoos all over the country. And I just thought that was the greatest thing in the whole world. And on top of that, they were also manufacturing pet food. And were an international brand at that time. So I thought, gosh, what a really cool career path I can still help animals. And so I went back to school for myMaster's Degree in Animal Nutrition, it wasMonogastrics, so I did swine nutrition for my masters at Cal-Poly Pomona. And shortly after that I was attending an industry trade show, met the owner of a small startup pet food company called New-Lo,and the owner there needed a product development manager, and I was looking for adventure and change.
(14:35):
And so I took the opportunity and moved to Texas. I started working there and that connected me with Dr. Aldrich, who is a consultant there for their company. And when I learned he was a professor at K-State and had a Pet FoodSscience program, of course, you know, all the bells went off in my head. I've got to get to be a part of that. It was just really cool. Something very relevant to what I did. And so that, that I jumped into the PhD program and fast forward, three years later here, I am getting ready to graduate and go back to work. So.
Scott Sorrell (15:02):
Yeah. Yeah. Excellent. Nice story. Nice story. Amanda, what's your story?
Dr. Amanda Dainton (15:10):
Absolutely. So back in high school in Connecticut, I also thought I’d want to be a vet, but I knew that I wanted my undergraduate degree to have a lot of hands-on experience. I'm someone who learns best by doing, instead of just reading a book or listening to a lecture. And that led me to Kansas State University. There's a very good vet school here, and the feed science program is extremely hands-on. Nearly every single class that's required and that undergraduate degree has a lab with it. So you're learning with your hands, but you're also taking lectures as well. So that brought me all the way from Connecticut to Kansas and by happenstance, Dr. Aldrich and I were paired up as advisor and advisee. I was, I believe I was one of his very first advisees. It was a great relationship, but he helped me get my first internship at a pet food company.
(16:05):
And it was that internship that solidified for me that there's some things about the vet route that I don't really like. And there are a lot of things I really do like about working in the pet food industry. So switched mindsets about halfway through my undergrad and then went and did a master's degree at the University of Illinois, where I specialized in companion animal nutrition. And then the K-State purple blood is never completely out of your system. So I got pulled back in by Dr. Aldrich, he was looking for someone who wanted to focus on canning wet pet food, and that's an area of the industry that I absolutely love. So I jumped at the opportunity to come back, and to really get to understand the food science side of canned pet food and all the technical knowledge and technical skills that not every program is able to pass along to a student.
Scott Sorrell (16:56):
And what are your plans after graduation? I guess I should've asked that of all three of you.
Dr. Amanda Dainton (17:01):
Sure. So, I just accepted a job a couple of weeks ago, so I'm, I'll be moving in a few weeks headed back east to Pennsylvania.
Dr. Eric Altom (17:11):
Okay. Okay. Very well. Awesome. Congratulations.
Scott Sorrell (17:16):
And Heather, you're headed back to, are you staying with Newlo?
Dr. Heather Acuff (17:21):
That's right. Yep. So I, I can I have, what's called a bowl of Heather 2.0. Once I go back. So I'm not sure quite what that looks like, but it'll be really exciting. I'm sure.
Scott Sorrell (17:32):
Krystina, where are you headed? You're going to stay up you're in school for awhile?
Krystina Lema (17:46):
No. So I am going to get some extra experience. I am still applying for jobs at this moment, so I will let you know once I know.
Scott Sorrell (17:48):
Yeah, yeah. Very well. Dr. Aldrich, you're going to be losing a couple of good ones here. You've got a pipeline coming and how big can the program get? Do you have any limits? There means more hands.
Dr. Greg Aldrich (18:09):
Uh, I’m there, I’m there. So as I was explaining to someone this morning, the rubber band stretched to the full, I don't know if it'll go much further. They've all been terribly patient with me through this period of time. Frankly, what has happened is we, we want to stay somewhere around eight to 10 students, but I, I always have trouble saying no to some really high caliber, young people that come our way. And so I've always tried to keep the doors as open as possible and let, hope that that there some sort of remedy on the other side as we get busy and part of that is their patience and grace. It's also been that we got hit with COVID last year, you guys probably heard about that in the news. But that has delayed a few folks. And so several, several of the students were supposed to be graduating last summer and fall.
(18:59):
And unfortunately we had to delay that because we were pushed off of campus. Nobody was angry at us. It just, they were more concerned about us contracting and continueing to spread the disease. So we were off campus for about five months and that's kind of delayed us. That's, what's got us kind of doubled up right now. We expect by this time, well, by August, we'll be down in our count by at least seven students. And I should be back to a grandtotal of eight graduate students, which is kind of the ideal size for one professor. What we're hoping to do in the long-term Scott is, is, is I,I agreed as an industry professional to come in and become an academic, which has been a bit of a mind to bender all along, is that the reason or the, or the only interest that I had in being able to do this and towards the end of my career is, is if we could A.)create a sustainable program and B.)to build some critical mass.
(19:58):
And so I'm hoping as we go forward in the next few years, that there'll be some additional industry support to maybe help us with some additional hiring of other faculty so we can increase our numbers here and truly service what I think the industry has a demand for, both in research and also in our graduates. I think we could probably place twice to three times the number of students that we’re graduating on an annual basis with pet food companies. It's just a matter of recruiting those students and being able to provide enough faculty to carry the coursework.
Scott Sorrell (20:40):
I'm assuming there's probably more bandwidth for more students you know. The pet food industry’s, growing leaps and bounds. And I'm also assuming there's probably other programs out there looking to, to build their own program. What kind of advice would you give them as they look to build their programs?
Dr. Greg Aldrich (20:57):
Probably the biggest thing is, is don't let the idea that you gotta have money get in your way. Just go. Do. And the money will come. That seems really strange in this era of budgets and constraints, but it's... Ericand I used to work for a gentlemen- a very profound thinker and Clay Mattil, who was our owner of the IAMS company years ago. And he, his, his statement was, and I'm probably paraphrasing here is, is you'll always have more money than you will time. So the idea is, is that money will come, and I've been able to operate within the boundaries of the university system under that foundation is that if I found great students and had great projects, that the money would come for it. And so that's my advice to anybody starting any of these programs. There's plenty of need. You just need to put it out there, build it. And the industry, the students, and the programs will fall into place.
Scott Sorrell (22:02):
Yeah. Great advice. What kind of impact would you say maybe it's a little early yet, but what kind of impact would you say that your program your students have had on the industry so far? Have any nice anecdotal stories?
Dr. Greg Aldrich (22:15):
Well, I have to think about that Scot. A little bit. And so leading into that conversation, I would simply tell you that we're starting to see more and more K-Staters out of our program placed in various companies around the pet food industry. And it's really fun to see them having some success and moving upwards and across to other different opportunities. Most of the folks, and I'll I'll use this anecdote. This was from one of our students that was placed after her master's degree, over here at Hills in Topeka. And one of their advisors was basically telling us that while she came in with a master's degree and, and we always hear this idea of, well, they hit the ground running. He says, no, not just that. She was a two year head start about ahead of anybody else that we've ever recruited for this, for the same job.
(23:10):
And that's because most of what they had recruited in the past were food scientists that had come in from the world renowned food science programs, but they didn't have any of the baseline understanding of how pet food was manufactured, how it was regulated and how it was evaluated from a animal standpoint or from a human consumer standpoint. And so, you know, the students coming out of here have a two year head start on anybody else that they might run into, that's coming out of an animal science, food science, food engineering program, because they just know this business. It's- pet food is different than human food, and it's different than livestock feed. It is the third leg of the food industry stool.
Scott Sorrell (23:54):
So I've kind of monopolized the microphone here. I'd like to open it up to the team here. What, what have we not covered yet that, that you guys would like to share that we need to share about the K state program
Dr. Eric Altom (24:05):
Having been able to be at K state and part of some of their R& D showcases and innovation workshops, I think is very critical, not only for the industry to see and meet the students, but also for other students in graduate programs and agricultural programs across the country, to be able to come in and see what, what those opportunities are. Because you don't know what you don't know. And Greg highlighted the challenges sort of like human food, but not really. It has some principles of animal nutrition and feed production, but it's, it's, there's enough nuances there that is not a simple plug and play industry. And I think to me, it's an incredible time, because not only are you going to do this, but you're going to have to have your passport. It is absolutely global. And they're trying to expand more and more and more around the world. So it's very, very much a global, global industry as well,
Scott Sorrell (25:07):
Asking Heather, what kind of advice would you give to students? I, I, I've had three, I've got three kids in college right now and all three of them. They, they, they really struggle with knowing what to do and finding their path and they're all finding it. Right? You know, we all do, but, but what kind of advice would you give a young student just getting ready to leave high school, looking for a school, looking for a major, what kind of advice would you have for them relative to looking at, at, at, at doing what you're doing?
Dr. Amanda Dainton (25:39):
Sure. I think it's, it's kind of two-sided advice. So one is if they're feeling ready to go straight into college and they feel that kind of compelling direction to just stay in school, then my advice would be to talk to the professors of the programs they're interested in joining. Don't be afraid of them. I see a lot of the young students on campus today and coming in, being older than them, they just seem so shy and so isolated in their world and afraid of interaction. When in reality, professors are there to help them they're willing and open, and that's why they do what they do. So the young students looking for a program, reach out and talk to your professors and just explore, ask questions. That's, that's what they're there for. And on the other side of it, you know, for older students you know, I kind of struggled with this and I wish somebody had given me this advice, but for awhile, I told myself the lie that you're too old to go back to school.
(26:25):
You know, I graduated, I joined the workforce, I'd pass 30 and I thought, oh, I could never go back. And that's absolutely not true. You know, if you're, if you're interested in a certain area, then yeah, it's never too late to go back. And I find myself laughing. Now I see PhD students that are in their forties, fifties, even older. And I'm just like, why did I tell myself that? So I hope that if industry members are looking in and going back to broaden their academic career, that it's never too late. So, so don't let that stop you.
Scott Sorrell (26:55):
Great advice. So Amanda, Krystina, any thoughts?
Dr. Amanda Dainton (26:59):
Sure. I'll jump in. If you don't mind, Krystina, I think Heather has made some excellent points and maybe the one thing I'd add is that if taking an internship is an option that's available to you, even if it's just a summer internship or, you know, some companies will do a one week immersive experience for college students.Definitely take advantage of those opportunities. For me, they helped shape my career. And even then items that have come up in job interview is down the road. So I think internships getting to actually have some experience, any industry that you think you might want to work in is very valuable. It can help confirm for you that, yes, this is exactly where I want to be. It can also tell you, Hmm. Maybe this isn't quite exactly what I want to do. Not really what I was expecting.
Scott Sorrell (27:47):
Advice, Krystina, anything to add?
Krystina Lema (27:51):
Yeah, I think they pretty well covered most of it. But I also recommend young students to, jump into the internet. We have like endless information there and we can actually get to see how different careers can actually be , after you’re done. Like how are they, the jobs you can find outthere, you, you study certain career. So I think it's also very beneficial for us when we don't know like what to do or what we expect when we follow certain path. It's very beneficial to get into the deeper information. And of course, like you see the university contact professors. That's also very helpful as well. Hmm.
Scott Sorrell (28:38):
So Krystina, while you have the floor: during the webinar, you outlined some research that you'd been working on, would you mind to kind of give us an overview of what the, what that was about and what some of the conclusions were?
Krystina Lema (28:51):
Sure. well, my, my research was about replacing the functionality of gluten. So nowadays we have treats that are mainly made with wheat, and it's basically because wheat has gluten, wheat comes with a structure already and also they like, it helps a lot in the process of it. But there are also other grain alternatives. So in our specific case, we evaluated sorghum. But since sorghum is a gluten free cereal, we were replacing the functionality with different proteins. So for this study, we borrowed from different sources for protein, such as egg protein, and we compared how those behaved to wheat, the original protein. So it was very interesting, and we got very nice results. One of the main results that my research had was hardness of the protien.
(29:52):
So we actually confirmed like that this protein helped with what water binding capacity and also during baking, they have this structure of protein. So they couldn, they could be shaped in their, a molder, which is that the specific shaping technology that we use in this research. We did not find differences in the soliditywhen we performed blind testswith dogs. So that's also a very interesting outcome of the experiment. Other outcomes that we, that we had was that when we did a sensorypanel, actually, they, they realized like all the cracks of the product were removed when adding the protein, which actually can translate in a better smoother look going into the product. And also in the color of the protein at baking. So it created like a darkening in the processing.
Scott Sorrell (31:02):
Dr. Aldridge, any or Eric, any, any questions for Krystina?
Dr. Eric Altom (31:07):
Yeah, for me, I always wonder the first question is, you know, kind of what would I have done differently? And then, you know, as scientists, the next question is always, okay, well, what's next, most studies are going to give you three, four, five, and I'm not asking about, you know, proprietary information, but, you know, with what you've learned, where would you like to go next with evaluating, baking or preference testing or those types of things?
Krystina Lema (31:37):
I would have included more preliminary trials before getting into the big round that we have. Yeah, because we experienced a little bit of trouble while processing, especially the egg protein. So I will recommend, or if I could like restart the project, I would do more preliminary trials with that. I'm also like, it will be very interesting to evaluate more in depth each protein We've evaluate the cereals by themselves, but we don't have much information about the proteins and the characteristic they have by itself. So that's very important. And actually it doesn't stay like that in our study. It would come next, like.
Dr. Eric Altom (32:25):
Good, good. So that'd be the next way. Kind of get a little more detailed about all those individual proteins and maybe do a few more, you know, bench top trials or bench top assaysto make sure you've got all the, the protocols and things in place before you go to the much larger trial.
Krystina Lema (32:47):
Yep. So we actually have a wider range of the proteins these things take.
Dr. Eric Altom (32:53):
Case. Excellent. Excellent. Okay.
Dr. Greg Aldrich (32:56):
To that point what Krystina's project was about is can we replace wheat with another grain that contains no gluten and use a soluble animal protein? The answer was Krystina, can we do it? Yes. Now we got to fine tune this, because I don't think we're at the end of whether or not it's you know, there's some, there's some, probably some trade outs and replacement values. We may get into some combinations of proteins. So, you know, Krystina really led us down the path of yes, we can. Now we get to get down into the details.
Dr. Eric Altom (33:38):
Right, right, right. And that to me is the fun thing. How do we start tailoring these matrices? How do we start tailoring the processes? How do we start building a dataset? Because what a company is going to ask is: what will this do to my cost? What will this do to my runtimes? What claims could I potentially make on the product? So, start getting into some of those fine tune, because we may have, you may do one thing that meets this criterion, but it's a trade-off in another area. And to me, that's exactly what we're asked to do as technologists. Yes, we can. Now let's make it a little more tailored and let's make it a little more fine tune. Let's be able to articulate it a little stronger. So that that's an excellent job in my opinion.
Dr. Greg Aldrich (34:29):
So it, so in my perspective, here, in some respects, we could continue to go down this path here at K-State and explore a little bit more, and we'd be looking at some of those fundamental tradeoffs between the type of protein, the concentration of the protein and the type of starch and the process. But you know, what we've done right now is opened up the door for, as a technology for companies to go in and take that same thing and adapt and, and refine in their own production processes. Because, you know, the production process is going to be quite a bit different from one manufacturer to the next. So at least open that door. We'll, we'll continue to explore here a little bit, but you know, for pet food companies that want to go down this path the proof of concepts is there.
Dr. Eric Altom (35:15):
Good, good, excellent. Excellent.
Scott Sorrell (35:18):
Amanda, tell us a little bit about the presentation that you gave during the real science lecture series and what were some of the key findings of your experiments?
Dr. Amanda Dainton (35:27):
Absolutely. So this was just a small portion of my research for my PhD, and it's specifically looked at some of the typical and common carbohydrate hydrocolloids that are used in wet pet food. In the past, we've learned a lot about how they affect nutrition and stool quality, but no one has ever looked at their functional benefits to the food product itself. So we looked at guar gum, kappa carrageenan, locust bean gum, and xanthan gum as our four different carbohydrate hydrocolloids and then included... had a little bit of a confusing to compliance design. But all of our treatments had at least half per cent of guar gum, and then had three of the other treatments that also had either half a percent ofone of the other three hydrocolloids. And so we were able to see that by adding these hydrocolloids, we increased batter thickness, which is beneficial for when we're filling our cans or other containers in wet pet food. And we also saw differences in texture. So our kappa carageenan & guar gum treatment had a very firm brittle gel structure. Whereas our locus bean gum or xanthan gum with guar gum treatments were more rubbery. They still had a nice flow shape. But they were a little more forgiving when we applied force to them.
Dr. Eric Altom (36:50):
Well, I've got a question and this is, we may have to guess at it a little bit, and I think that's okay, because again, we're, we're just sitting in ourbrains,. But dogs they're, there’s definitely differences in texture and dogs will eat in three days, but we all know cats are not small dogs, and texture’s absolutely critical. What would it be? What is the texture of a wet product need to be for cats? Should it be more crumbly? Should it hold together more? So that they can actually bite and eat or should it have some of the more, you know, liquid moist phases. So they lick what, what's our guesstimation of what that texture might look like? Or do we even, I mean, can we even guess at that? I know, I can't guess at it right now. I mean, so that's, that was kinda my question out of the blue.
Dr. Amanda Dainton (37:43):
I’ll at least try to guess at in. I'll start off by saying that there's very little research done in wet pet food, even looking at nutrition. So there's, there's some indication that cats would actually prefer something that's a softer texture. Dogs tend to bite and chew their food, whereas cats will use their tongues more to lap the food up. So that's why some cat owners see that their cat will lick the gravy before they eat the chunks in a chunks and gravy product. So, I would say something is softer, a little more lickable/lappable. And then every cat is different and every pet owner knows their cat is special and has their own unique preferences. So best of luck, all the cat owners.
Dr. Eric Altom (38:32):
Is it just me, or is it thatcats actually take pride, being different from everyone else. I mean, and dogs are unique. So, you know, small breed dogs, but we have, it seems if we have larger groups and trends, but it's almost like at times every cat in the colony has their own little quirks and differences and this what they like to eat out of and how it sums on a flat surface. So I'm prefer a bowl...and I do remember working with some of the wet products that the viscosity of the gravy was very critical, such that it would drain through, if you're doing a C&G type product, it would drain more toward the bottom such that the cats would, would eat the chunks or the nutrition at that, in that particular formula, rather than just licking the gravy and leaving the chunk behind. But is it just my opinion that cats seem to take pride in being unique or, or am I just misreading it?
Dr. Greg Aldrich (39:29)
I think they're just brutally indifferent. Yeah.
Dr. Amanda Dainton (39:33):
And maybe blissfully ignorant that they don't realize that not all cats are exactly like them, that they’re not the normal.
Scott Sorrell (39:43):
You know, building on Eric's question, Amanda. So instead of the animal, what's their preference. What's, what's the human prefer? Do we know that? And have you guys done any market research and trying to understand that at all?
Dr. Amanda Dainton (39:58):
So I hate to keep repeating the same answer, but unfortunately we really don't know a lot about wet pet food in peer reviewed literature. That was an area that Dr. Aldrich and I have discussed going into the future with the sensory analysis test. And that sensory analysis center here at Kansas State University, and really understanding what your pet owners prefer, what are they expecting out of a canned pet food. So hopefully that will be coming in the future.
Scott Sorrell (40:28):
Spoken like a true scientist, more research is needed.
Dr. Greg Aldrich (40:32):
Right? Well, the problem is, is there's no research done so far in that area. So, you know, there is more research needed because it's a huge gap. I mean I, the, the various meetings I go to in conferences and we'll talk with the students, we'll take their posters or presentations, and somebody will catch me in the hallway and say, we already knew that we already knew that information. And my point to them, if it wasn't published it, it wasn't done. And there's so much of the work that people assume we know from human foods, or they assume we know from the companies and their marketing and positioning of their products, but it's not written down anywhere. Good luck finding it. We've got to go build that library. And that's kind of what we're trying to do here.
Scott Sorrell (41:15):
Yeah. Yeah. Good for you, Heather. Let's let's turn to you. You gave a very nice presentation on probiotics during the real science lecture series. Tell us about that. And what kind of conclusions did you come to?
Dr. Amanda Dainton (41:27):
Sure. So the probiotic I was working with through my research was ganedanBC30, it's a bacillus coagulans sporulated probiotic. And, a non-science, just industry talk, that one's been very much promoted as a probiotic that's great forprocessed foods on the basis that it survives. So it's one that we can guarantee bioavailability for. My company is included in promoting its benefits for dogs and cats, but much of that support has been based on what we know in humans. So to Dr. Aldrich's point, what do we know about dogs and cats and this probiotic? It just hadn't been done before. So much of my research was a pilot study on understanding how this probiotic responds to extrusion processing, which is going to be one of the main ways that pet food is produced, as well as what are some of those benefits that we, you know, are we actually gonna see them?
(42:17):
And if we see them in the animal at what dose does it take to get there? So just key highlights of what we found is that the probiotic did survive extrusion, depending on what our settings were for that extruder, we saw anywhere between 2, up to about 3.5 log reduction, which equates to over 99.9% loss. So it sounds like we're losing a lot, but when you think in probiotic numbers, if you're starting with a very high dose, say 7log, then losing 3log may be acceptable depending on what your target doses for the finished product. So it's all relative to what the finished product intention is and how that extruder process is run. And that can be different depending on what facility, how their extruder’s configured, what matrix they're producing it with. For instance, how much water they're putting into it, how much fat is in the mixture.
(43:07):
All of these variables come together. And at the end of the day for producers looking to use that probiotic in a base ration, that recommendation that we'd take away is validate the product, just run it through the process, get a test, to provide stability and make sure you're doing your due diligence and meeting those claims that are put on label, because at the end of the day, that's the guarantee of the consumer. And on the animal health side, if it's going to elicit a benefit, it needs to be at a certain dose. So for ours, that dose was around 10. It was 10 to the ninth, which is about 1 billion CFU consumed per day per dog. So we've got to take that into account, backing all the way upstream to how much we put into the products.
Scott Sorrell (43:46):
Dr. Altom, iyou were sitting in on, on Heather's defense what, what, what kind of questions would you ask?
Dr. Eric Altom (43:53):
Well, we've had a good conversation and I've been fortunate that I've been a been around some of the students before and, and Heather, and I've had a conversation about exactly.. her study was to actually put it through the extrusion process, but we have multiple steps in that process. So as a manufacturer, my question is, where would I get the greatest survivability? Should it come through the, you know, a dry mix, it then goes through the conditioning cylinder, and then through the extruder? Should I look at it as part of a component that's going to be, enrobed the outside of the kibble, are there other technologies to try to protect it? So, I mean, I know, and I liked the work because the biggest thing is, will it survive during the extrusion. And some people say, yes, it's short time. But it's high temperatures, high pressures, high moisture, all of those things really just have a, a huge step. And quite honestly, with a lot of the regulations around FSMA and safety, you, there is a bacteria kill step in, in the extrusion process specifically to do that. So Heather, help the team understand a little bit and our listeners you know, if the world's your oyster, where would you try to plug these, these gut health probiotic technologies into the manufacturing?
Dr. Amanda Dainton (45:21):
Sure. I think if it had to be in the food, and not served separately as a concentrated supplement on the side, then adding it to, as an eroding feature on the coding of the kibble would be the best bet. You know, when you're exposing the probiotic to those harsh conditions, whether it be steam in the pre conditioner, or it be all of the friction that it's hitting against the screw in the extruder, you're asking a lot of a probiotic. And in part of my research, I tried to highlight the journey of a probiotic, putting yourself in that organism’s shoes. I would not want to come back and be a probiotic. It would be so much work to be able to withstand all of those different stressors. And by the time you've reached the pet, you still have to pass through the gastrointestinal tract. So I think best foot forward for probiotics, adding it as a coating to the kibble would be the most, or the way to maximize survival. But you can also have a number of other ways, you know, if you've, you feed it as a supplement, concentrated on the side, you have a little bit more control over the dose and how it's stored and handled. It doesn't necessarily have to go through mass distribution as kibblewould have.
Dr. Eric Altom (46:24):
Okay. All right. That's good. And, you know, we, you and I have talked as well. If we can, the more, the more technology so we can put in a kibble, a lot of people say, well, that just said there to increase the price of the food. It's actually really to help the pet parent with compliance of the regulation, if I can scoop and put it together, that makes my life a lot easier. So we, we had that trade off of supplements and compliance as well. Have you seen some of that same challenges with, with some of these technologies and your customers with compliance and as well?
Dr. Amanda Dainton (47:05):
Yeah. So, putting my nu-ow hat on, we don't sell any supplements on the side. So I can't say I have a lot of experience with pet owners kind of juggling doing both, but I can say from a pet food balance standpoint, you know, that's the reason we put the vitamins and minerals in the food. So we're not leaving it up to any guesswork in the consumers home about how much of this do I add? Did they do it right? Do they mix it uniformly? It's allowing the commercial manufacturers do that on a very large scale ata very high level of expertise that goes behind that. So it's not only allowing the customer to have that peace of mind that it's been mixed at the right dose, and just being given it every meal, but it takes away that guesswork of, did I do it correctly? or did I remember to do it ?which is really, really common.
Dr. Eric Altom (47:49):
That compliance piece is something near and dear to my heart. I'm trying to help customers, but also know in my own lifestyle.
Dr. Greg Aldrich (47:56):
So the compliance is part of it, Eric and the other is, is a consistency. So we're typically feeding our dogs twice a day, morning and night. And so we have a steady dose coming in twice a day, rather than a one-time bolus dose and hope it does the job. And I think that's the biggest feature in regards to the probiotics, these direct fed microbials, because they're transient. So they're kind of coming in and going out every day. And so we've got to, we've got to sort of scale them or stage them along with the food because the food becomes a substrate in the colon that we're really trying to influence.
Dr. Eric Altom (48:36):
Absolutely. I don't know how you all have found out if you haven't, you certainly will. Once people find out that you work in, in pet foods and pet nutrition, they want to ask you questions. And do you all want the- and I don't want you to mention names or individuals we're not ratting out our favorite aunt or aunt, you know, or, or the neighbor down the street. Do you want to share some, one of the funniest questions you've ever been asked.
Dr. Amanda Dainton (49:06):
Oh, I’ll jump in here. There was one I had at a previous company and I won't name names, but I handled several of the phone calls there . One of the phone calls that came in from a pet owner. And it was a question about a vegetarian pet food. And the focus of their question was not for their pet. They were actually asking if it was safe to consume the product themselves, because as a vegetarian, they didn't like eating fruits and vegetables. And so they wanted me to tell them over the phone, it was safe for them to consume a vegetarian pet food and have that bea-OK for them. So I had to very professionally explain to them differences between human nutrition and dog nutrition and why that wouldn't be appropriate with also supporting the fact that it's a great quality product, but we're not going to tell you to eat the petfood. So that was too funny. I still chuckle about it today.
Dr. Eric Altom (49:53):
No idea of what line you would serve with vegetarian petfood, right? No. Amanda, Krystina, have, have you had any interactions with people asking you any type of funny questions yet?
Dr. Amanda Dainton (50:10):
I haven't been asked funny questions. I always get the question of what's the best food to feed my dog, but I was brought into a family dispute in which family members were screaming and crying that the one side thought they were going to kill the dog. And the other side didn't understand why. And was, it was quite a tense situation and everyone looking back on it now laughs that, you know, no pet foodcompany is intentionally putting food out there to kill your dog. Dog owners necessarily need to be worrying as their first priority.
Krystina Lema (50:50)
I don’t know. I don’t remember actually, like getting on like a funny question. Yes, before has been asked me and asking me about their real food. Like now, are they like more common to hear? So if it’s good, if it’s bad. Or also, there are a lot of people asking about treats. Because it can be overwhelming, like going to a shelves and find all types of treats on the market. So I have received more of these type of questions. Like nothing that's like a specific funny.
Dr. Eric Altom (51:21):
And I would like to tell you that you will get less questions through your career, but it will... no. You will get, and, and some folks were asking because they really want to know. There's a lot of information out there. Some of it is questionable as you know, that it's in the public domain for the general populace. And so we kind of have to be that, that translator of what did they really mean and what does this mean? And, and I, I, I may chuckle about it, but I do get a sense of enjoyment to be able to help people because they, they want to do the very best for these dogs and cats and the animals they share their lives with. Money: we say it is important, but really, and truly they'll sacrifice some other areas just to make sure that their pets are taken care of.
Scott Sorrell (52:19):
Yeah. Eric, I think we could do a whole podcast on funny questions.
Dr. Eric Altom (52:23):
Yeah, but no, not. We would all get sued!
Scott Sorrell (52:27):
With that. I don't know if you guys noticed, but Stephanie did flicker the lights, which means last call. And so we'll have another round here and yeah, absolutely. And that the pup back there was getting the best...wait what did that say?
Dr. Greg Aldrich (52:41):
“best dog dad ever.”
Scott Sorrell (52:44):
The best dog dad ever. Absolutely. Well, yeah. I saw you feeding the pup back there.
Dr. Greg Aldrich (52:49):
Lugers decided it's about, it's time to go out for a bio break. Yeah.
Scott Sorrell (52:54):
That's his way of telling you? Absolutely. The last question: As we've all seen pet parents are starting to feed their dogs, just like they feed the family. Right. And that's been a trend for the last several years. So what's going to be the next big trend? Where, where's this going. And then as kind of a follow-up question to that as a parting comment is what excites you about the future of the pet, pet food industry and the research going forward. And so let's start with, who wants to go first, Amanda?
Dr. Amanda Dainton (53:27):
Sure. I'll go first. So I believe your first question was where is the pet food industry going next? Yeah, I’d say the sky's the limit. And that's why I love the fact that industry, you know, we've, we've grown so much, even in just the last two years as an industry, it's a very diverse field and people always want to be providing the best that they can for their animals. So I know that's not the, probably the most scientific answer, but the pet-food industry can go wherever, wherever it needs to go, wherever we want it to go, I think.
Scott Sorrell (54:01):
Yeah. Nice answer, Heather.
Dr. Heather Acuff (54:05):
I think there's going to be a lot more focus on sustainability as we go forward. And that doesn't always agree with that family feeding type of mentality where we'd have meats that we would find on our own plates, you know, the, the nicely cut chicken breast, hand trimmed, and all of these grass fed claims and those sorts of things. Really starting to focus in on not just about where the ingredients are coming from, but in the packaging that they're put into, and how those packaging are disposed of. So the company that I work for today, there's a lot of focus on that and trying to be better stewards of our planet while also providing that nutrition for our pets. So, I think that as, as humans start to focus more on that for their own families. We're going to see that trickle into pet as well.
Scott Sorrell (54:49):
Well said, Krystina, what say you?
Krystina Lema (54:53):
Yeah, I agree. Nowadays, like the pet food industry, it tries to find like different raw materials, like not commonly used. So even towards sustainability, but also in their nutrition. So nowadays we see like more research with different and new ingredients, so how these ingredients perform on the health of the animal. So I think it would be like you, would be continuing recently. So as much as we get new ingredients, actually wecan test all the animals and feed they are available can be used in them, like with health beneficial benefits to them. And I remember we have talked for a while, but nowadays, like people have more access to information. So pet owners actually want to like pick a good industry company, and like providing them solutions to the brain. Sickness and animals to have from the big brands. Like if the animal, when itswrong or so they want also to have products that is specific target or animals. So we need to create more, a products bring also targets similar to what's seeing in the human industry.
Scott Sorrell (56:16):
Very well. And Dr. Aldrich, so we'll give you the last word.
Dr. Greg Aldrich (56:21):
The first I'm watching Luger here, he's anxious. I think he's got his knees crossed, trying to make sure that we get in the call before he he explodes on me. Aanyways. So the idea is, is what's the future. I think the future is as, as the students have already shared with you, it's, it's pretty wide open, but I would tell you that as Heather and Amanda have, have been involved in writing a paper about sustainability, and some of the topics that I'm hitting right now with the, on the, on the trade show sort of scene with the conferences. Protein is going to be our biggest challenge moving forward. Our, our world population is growing rapidly, continuing, and there's more and more of those folks eating more protein, more protein from animal sources. And so for those of us in the companion animal side, the pet food side, we're getting squeezed and we're going to have to start to embrace a lot different varieties of protein that we use in our companion animal diets. And it may be more of a harken back to vegetable-based proteins, not exclusively animal-based, and it may be alternative sources of protein. Insectsprotein, single cell proteins. Micro-Algae... even some animal protein sources that we may have discarded in the past. So we're going to have to get a little bit more open and receptive as consumers to alternative sources of ingredients rather than being overly humanized. Otherwise, we just won't be able to sustain this business.
Scott Sorrell (57:56):
Well, we've certainly enjoyed getting a behind the scenes, look at the newest research in the pet food market. And so thank you for joining us tonight and sharing your research. We know the future is bright with the great minds like yours, leading the charge. And thank you to our loyal listeners for stopping by at the, at the exchange to sit around and spend some time with us here tonight. If you like what you heard, please remember to drop us a five star rating on the way out. You can always also get a really cool Real Science Exchange. T-Shirt just by hitting the like, or the subscribe button on your favorite podcast platform, and then send us a screenshot along with your address and your size to anhmarketing@balchem.com. Our scientific conversations continue at the real science lecture series of webinars. Visit balchemanh.com/realscience to see upcoming events and past topics. We hope to see you next time here at the Real Science Exchange where it's always happy hour and you're always among friends.