Guests: Dr. Israel Flamenbaum, Cow Cooling Solutions; Dr. Shimon Carmi, SH Design; and Dr. Lance Baumgard, Iowa State University Spring is upon us in most parts of the world and the heat of summer will not be far behind. The impact that heat has on our cows can be devastating. Today’s episode will focus on managing dairy cows in high heat environments which takes a combination of mechanical intervention and precise feeding.
Guests: Dr. Israel Flamenbaum, Cow Cooling Solutions; Dr. Shimon Carmi, SH Design; and Dr. Lance Baumgard, Iowa State University
Spring is upon us in most parts of the world and the heat of summer will not be far behind. The impact that heat has on our cows can be devastating. Today’s episode will focus on managing dairy cows in high heat environments which takes a combination of mechanical intervention and precise feeding.
Dr. Israel Flamenbaum spoke about his summer lecture and the extreme environments that Israeli dairy farmers deal with. In the Jordan Valley, cows are under heat stress for almost six months per year. Whereas in the mountains there might be heat stress two or three months out of the year. But the cooling systems are the same. He explained that facilities there have high roofs and more space and lounging area for cows due to these extreme environments. (8:41)
Dr. Shimon Carmi discussed detecting stress in the herd and using different cooling practices to keep milk production steady. He mentioned farms starting the cooling practices early will still see a drop in milk production for a few days during those heat spikes but the farms starting their cooling practices later, and aren’t proactive about it, will experience decreased milk production for a month or longer after a heat spike. (28:00)
Dr. Lance Baumgard discussed data demonstrating in lactating cows, that lower producing cows will drink more water than higher producing cows. So the cow could be reducing milk yield to maintain healthy hydration. (37:15)
Dr. Shimon Carmi spoke about research to help desalinate water which could help immensely in the water depletion issues across the world. Cooling systems in dairy facilities are directly correlated to the water supply in that area and their water availability per facility. (49:08)
Dr. Israel Flamenbaum referred to a scientific committee that he heads whose mission is finding the appropriate cooling system for every kind of climate and dairy farm. (53:05)
Dr. Flamenbaum's articles he referenced can be found here:
https://outskirtspress.com/dairycalfandheiferfeedingandmanagement
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Scott Sorrell (00:00:07):
Good evening everyone. And welcome to the real science exchange. The pub guests, we're leading scientists and industry professionals meet over a few drinks to discuss the latest ideas and trends in animal nutrition. Spring O is upon us in most parts of the world. A and the heat of summer is not far behind. And the impact that heat has on our cows is devastating. Hi, I'm Scott SRE. One of your hosts here at the real science exchange, managing dairy cows in high heat environments takes a com combination of mechanical interventions and precise feeding. Tonight. We get the opportunity to discuss both experts from both sides. I can't wait to jump in. And so with that first guest, I'd like to welcome is Dr. Israel Flaman BA from Cal cooling solutions. Dr. Flaman BA joins us following a very successful webinar about this topic in the real science lecture series. Thanks for joining us today, Israel. And I know you were drinking lemonade earlier, so what's in your glass tonight though.
Dr. Israel Flamenbaum (00:01:05):
Well, I save this for the podcast and this is overall streets and this is a very sweet bitter drink that I like to drink. It's with ice. Usually, I drink it more in the summer than in winter, but this gives me a lot of good feelings. So cheers to
Scott Sorrell (00:01:25):
Everybody. Ah, cheers. Thank you very much.
Scott Sorrell (00:01:32):
We have several guests joining us here at the pub tonight. The next will be Shamone Carme with S H design in Israel as well. Shamone and I have known each other for a few years and shaman. I don't know the last time or one of the last times that we were together, we were on rooftops. I think it was at lake Como and was sipping some wine. And as I recall, we were discussing proper dairy facility design. So looking forward to having that conversation with you here today might prefer to be at lake Como, but this, this is gonna have to do Shae. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your background? I know you started out working as, a dairyman on a Cbus and then, you worked with FHI milk. Can you kind of give us an appreciation of your background?
Dr. Shimon Carmi (00:02:18):
Well, first of all, I was born 200 meters below sea level. And my experience with dairy farming since 1969 started 200 meters below sea level right. One and a half-mile south of the sea of Galilee in Israel. And so my first farm research on cooling cows was, was cooling dry cows or close-up cows. This was back in 1980. We saw in this experiment that the cows three weeks before Calvin if you cool them only twice a day in the holding pen, they will give more milk at that time. We didn't have milk at our disposal, but we had the DHI the four first months of lation. They over already produced three kilos of milk, more I'm talking about 1980 and we had less retained placenta.
Dr. Shimon Carmi (00:03:52):
We had less ma and we had bigger offsprings calves and easier birth. So it was enlighting and the year after we did the same thing with heifers in the three weeks before cowing. And so at that time, we already knew that in the Jordan valley in Israel, cows suffered from the hit. We, we were at that time a, all our calvings to the end of summer at the beginning of autumn because, in the summer, the cow would not consume. And we're talking about animals that are produced were producing 8,000 kilos of milk for lactation. And even though they had very severe heat stress and so I was born into it and I think the first meeting with this trial was when he was a young student in the university. I think one of his projects was in, in, in my KBU.
Dr. Israel Flamenbaum (00:05:31):
Yeah, just, to add to Toman this, this study describing the an in 80 was I can call it a preliminary study because it was, it opened the research, which was later on my Ph.D. and I did in 83, the, the large study on, on calling dry cows in, in ki, which is one of my publications in the journal of dairy science, dry calling cow drying, calling dry cows. So the preliminary study was done by Shon and his good colleague RI Tabun, which was what he passed away many years ago. And they were a team to do this work.
Scott Sorrell (00:06:16):
Ah, very interesting. We have. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thanks for joining us. Shamo and look forward to talking to you a little bit more. We also have Dr. Lance Baard with us Lance, you joined us last year on the podcast and looking on building on the conversation we had last year with you. So what are you drinking tonight? And any stories behind that?
Dr. Lance Baumgard (00:06:38):
Well, I'm currently in my office at Iowa state university, so it would be inappropriate me for, to be drinking everything. I would never do that, Scott. Yeah, but if I was, I'd be drinking a red breast 12, I enjoyed bourbon and Canadian whiskeys and have a fondness for Irish whiskeys and redbreast 12, if you ever get a chance, it is a smooth whiskey.
Scott Sorrell (00:07:04):
Yep. I've had it, had it in, in Ireland. And as I recall, you were having that last year as well, so yeah, it
Dr. Lance Baumgard (00:07:10):
Remains my
Scott Sorrell (00:07:11):
Favorites. Yep. Good. tonight my co-host is Dr. Glenn AINS. Glen AINS is a technical service manager, with B Kim, Glen. I don't know how many times you've been here, but two or three times. So you must be enjoying yourself. So welcome back. And what, what are you drinking tonight? Any stories behind that?
Dr. Glen Aines (00:07:29):
As always good to be here, Scott. And as you know, I've already, I'm deep into the warm weather, so I'm drinking a little cranberry vodka and Sprite, just a little spritzer. It's one of my favorite drinks on, hot sweaty days here in Florida. So,
Scott Sorrell (00:07:47):
Awesome. So
Dr. Glen Aines (00:07:48):
What do you drink Scott?
Scott Sorrell (00:07:51):
Well, my son for Christmas bought me a little CA and it's a kit to make your bourbon. So I did that. And last week, I harvested that. And so I'm drinking Noah's reserve. Noah's the name of my son. So cheers, looking forward to, a great podcast folks.
Dr. Glen Aines (00:08:10):
Cheers, cheers, Scott.
Scott Sorrell (00:08:14):
All right. Is Israel to get us started? Why don't you give us kind of an overview of the, there in Israel and, and, and what the Israeli dairy farmers are dealing with?
Dr. Israel Flamenbaum (00:08:25):
Well, I described it in, in, in my lecture summer, summer is different in the high let's say the mountain area and the Jordan valley, it's different. Then, in the place where she came from which is in the Jordan valley is cows are suffering heat stress, for almost six months per year. Why in the mountains? What? Okay, great. But in, in the mountains it'll be, it'll be no more than two, three months, and even in these two, three months, it is not all the time. So summers can be very variable, but the cooling system is the same. And the length of, of, of of the duration of using it is different. So
Scott Sorrell (00:09:23):
You talked a lot during your webinar about the mechanical cooling use of water. How, what role does the facility design have in that, and in, in cooling cows and, and specific, let me be a little more specific. Maybe this is also a question for Shae, but I, I, I'm just reckoning back to some of the conversations that we had is that you guys provide quite a large, a loafing area, if you will, under shade, which is different than what we do here, we have the free stalls and y'all don't have the free stalls there. What role does that play if any, in heat mitigation?
Dr. Israel Flamenbaum (00:10:04):
Yeah, I think that I think that there are a few factors, first of all, roofs are very high a lot of space per cow, which let's say red uses the risk of one cow heating another cow much better. Let's say natural wind, if you have it in the, in the compass ban farm we try to even though that the roofs are very high, we try to repaint the white the the the roofs from up every second or third year, then the reflection is, is, is, is, is better. But I, so this, this can help, but the problem is even not climate. The problem is the cow and the I'm visiting so frequently, Europe now is not because climate change in Europe so much, has cows changed in Europe so much in the last 20 years, the European cow doubled its production. And as I showed you in my lecture when we had the 25 lit kilograms cow Sheik could, she could let's say resist six hours between one cooling session and another, and with 45 or 50 kilograms per day, generating modern double Watts of heat, she cannot tolerate modern three or four hours. So this, the the the big difference, the big change is not cl change, but cow change, I would, I would say,
Dr. Glen Aines (00:11:41):
So how does that affect your managing groups, in Israel? If, if higher producing cows need more cooling, do you, are you breaking 'em up into two or three groups based on production, or how do you, how do you manage that?
Dr. Israel Flamenbaum (00:11:58):
Look, look, the reality in Israel is that we don't have low-producing cows.
Dr. Israel Flamenbaum (00:12:04):
We don't divide cows according to groups, production groups cool them differently. We call all the cows according to the high-producing cows. So we would say that most of the dairy farms in Israel are having one diet for all the herd. So there is no, the reason put cows in different groups for, for, for coating them in different let's say intensities. So all the cow's risk, first of all, all the cows are high producing cows. We dry off cows with more than 30 kilograms. So, all the cows receive the same treatment.
Dr. Glen Aines (00:12:43):
Okay. Makes sense.
Dr. Lance Baumgard (00:12:46):
Simone, your, comments though, about days and no, cause something I was wanting to ask Israel for a long time, is that the one, the summer ratio would be, I would assume heavily influenced by differences in days and milk between the two seasons. So Israel, do you wanna, or Simone wanna,
Dr. Israel Flamenbaum (00:13:07):
You wanna, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I, I, I am, I am respons responsible for, for for the summer to winter ratio. And, I got, I got one of I got an email from one of the participants saying, asking this question you are, you are right. And in the, in the Noah, which is the health management program in Israel, we divide it into different stages in lactation. So we have summer to win the ratio for different stages in lactation. So what let's say 0 50, 5000 hundred, 200, 200 more, and then you, you reduce the risk of, of having a bias information. But we use also for once a year the, the, let's say the complete one with all the risks, but you, you, you see, for example, the lymphoma, I, I, I decided to show the lymphoma because I wanted to show what is the potential of Cal cooling in a very ex stream warm weather, which is the title of my lecture and with very high milk-producing cows, they are today in 50 kilograms per cow, average held average.
Dr. Israel Flamenbaum (00:14:29):
And, and this is done by very, very, let's say very intensive cooling as, as I do describe, but, but my, the idea of showing the li in my lecture was to show that it is possible. And, and I have a, a, a group of 15, 20 farms that every year, year by year, they are, they are coming with the same results. Do you understand? So, so it's, it's important to know that it is possible. Yes, we can. Yeah.
Dr. Glen Aines (00:15:01):
Yep. It would also be defined. You need, you need to define summer and winter. Right. Cuz when, when do you define winter? Is it just based on specific months? Are you doing temperature? Do you know what I'm saying?
Dr. Israel Flamenbaum (00:15:16):
Well, well in Israel it is January, March, and then it is July September, but for example, when I started a project in northern Mexico in, Toon we decided, to have also June in, in, in the mark. So we had to add December in the, on the other side, to have four months plus four months. But it depends on, on climatic conditions and there are places in the world that you cannot use some to winter ratio, for example in any part of Brazil, I am working in Brazil and I, I co-owner of a company in Brazil. There are many places in Brazil that, that is, it's very difficult because you have summer and summer and summer. Yeah,
Scott Sorrell (00:16:05):
Yeah. Israel for those that didn't attend the webinar, do you think it'd be appropriate maybe just kind of back kind of give a, a definition of, of what the winter-summer ratio is and, and what that is, and maybe some of the background for that?
Dr. Israel Flamenbaum (00:16:20):
Yeah. we, we want to know first how much the farm is suffering from heat stress. And later on when he implements a cooling system are much successfully is in, in mitigating heat stress. So we take the average of different parameters it's milk production it's fat protein, somatic cell count peak lactation conception rate. And we relate the the the average edges in, in summer and winter as, and as summer numbers are close to the winter, it means that this farm is doing well. And if they're very far from it, like I showed that the the the failing farms being below 0.9, they, they, they, they have to do a lot to be, to improve. If you go to the article from the United States and you compare the Southern states to the Northern state states you can see a big difference. The Northern states are like Israel, which is much warmer, and the Southern states are much below Israel. They are, they are like the failing farms in Israel. So, this article shows that still, we dairy farms have to do a lot to improve themselves, as we did in the last 20, 30 years.
Dr. Glen Aines (00:17:52):
So if I understood you, the index is more than just simply the ratio of the winter and summer milk. You're including other variables, milk protein. Yeah, yeah. Milk fat. Okay.
Dr. Israel Flamenbaum (00:18:02):
Yeah. Scott didn't give me more than 45 minutes. So I had to be,
Dr. Shimon Carmi (00:18:09):
It's also, it's, it's also, it's also a, a situation which is specifically correct in Israel that milk consumption in the summer is higher. And the natural desire of the cow is to produce less milk in the suburb. So we are going to fight the cow by cooling it. And it, it's not the same thing all over the world. For example, Israel sent me back in 1993 to send America, and I spent six years in El Salvador over there. You have to cool cows 24, 7 years round.
Scott Sorrell (00:18:58):
So I think that's a great segue gentleman, into talking a little bit about so what methods do you use there in Israel? Two cool cows. What are the most effective?
Dr. Israel Flamenbaum (00:19:08):
The most effective system is what I described as, the direct calling system, which is a, a, a, a combination of a wedding and false ventilation, short wedding sessions with very intensive strong wind speed in sequences. It, we found it relatively cheap to handle easy to handle. And it is effective in, in, in let's say humid areas, because the alternative of trying to cool the air in, in, in, in, in humid, the conditions is very tough. You can do it, but, but you have to, you, you have to cycle the wind inside the building so fast that you, you, you, you, you, you have to spend a lot of electricity. So a system that works very well in Saudi or the rights or Arizona will not work in, most parts of Israel. So we decided to go, for the direct calling system. And, it works very well. And, and, and, and what I showed is that is, it is so cost-effective, that there is no other investment in the dairy sector that can pay BA to be paid back so fast, like cooling if you do it properly. But if you don't do it properly, as I showed you, lose your pants, you or you, you, you either do it well or don't do it.
Dr. Shimon Carmi (00:20:40):
I, I, I want to make an, a comment. We have tried cooling the environment of the cows to the extent that it's so foggy under the roof of the cows, that the temperature outside is above a hundred degrees. And inside the barn, it was maybe 70, but when you look at the cows, they had to get rid of the humidity in the air. And therefore this system, even in the driest weather, in Israel, in the desert, didn't work as well as direct cooling of cows.
Dr. Israel Flamenbaum (00:21:27):
Look, there, there is, there is something else United States you have, and most of the dairy farms in the United States, you have a very cold winter and, and, and warm summer. So your buildings are, needs to be done. First of all, for the winter like in north China, also not and other cool areas in Israel, we have in most of Israel, we have four warm months. So for these four warm months, we do not need to have buildings which are we can have buildings with high and much space per cow. So to cool this volume, these cubic meters, it's very expensive. So, we go for a direct cooling system also because of this region, because the rest of the eight months per year, we enjoy good buildings without any need of cooling in Brazil, in Brazil, where the situation is different. We are trying to find a solution and change the space per cow, between the warm and the cooler season by putting cows, et cetera. But this is Brazil. Israel is different. We have clear. So not very long in most parts of Israel, not in the Jordan valley. And we have all the rest of the deal is, is quite good. So we enjoy good housing for our cows. Very comfortable.
Dr. Lance Baumgard (00:23:04):
Do you guys have feeding feed available in that cooling?
Dr. Shimon Carmi (00:23:11):
No. In the holding pens or cooling pens, there are only water troughs. And, and the question is, is, is, is very, is very to the point, because when we release the cows from the holding pen, they will go straight to the feed manager and they will eat for about 20 minutes or half an hour. Then they will lie down, chewing the cut. And by the time they get up, we have to bring them back to the holding pad
Dr. Israel Flamenbaum (00:23:50):
Look feeding is like what, I showed about standing and laying down. If you cool properly the cow, although you make the cow stand more time in the 24 hours, she will lay down more time. The same is with feeding. If you, if you don't cool, the cows and you provide feed all the days, they will eat less than if you take six hours from the, from the eating time for cooling the rest 18 hours, they will eat more,
Dr. Shimon Carmi (00:24:22):
More, more than that. If you have a cooling system in the feed manager, sometimes the cow will get up. She will stand as the feed manager. She would not eat. And after 10 minutes, she will start chewing the cut. And she just comes to the feed manager to cool herself. So know it's, it's, it's the cow get used to it. And they would, they would take their head out of the, out of the barn because the water doesn't they don't like the water on their head.
Dr. Glen Aines (00:25:03):
I'm just curious if we've looked at this winter summer index in any form here in the United States as a guide for helping people understand cooling.
Dr. Lance Baumgard (00:25:16):
Yeah. Yeah. I think Callier and others have kind of picked up on that a little bit. Like someone mentioned earlier, in the webinar, it doesn't, I don't think it works quite as well in the Midwest where we have heatwaves. The one metric, I think might work better in the Midwest United States is maybe like pre rate or concept rate where it's the accumulative amount of time, but milk KLE, you know, and flows with heatwaves. So it's, I'm not sure if it's utility in the Midwest, but from a pregnancy perspective, I think there's a, there's some, there's some value there.
Dr. Glen Aines (00:25:58):
Yeah. As I watched his presentation, you know, I kept looking at the milk production differences were relatively small from a percentage standpoint, but, those set rate differences were huge. They were 60, 70%.
Dr. Lance Baumgard (00:26:14):
We have similar swings in pre-rates.
Dr. Glen Aines (00:26:16):
Yes,
Dr. Lance Baumgard (00:26:17):
You have to Iowa state dairy. It will be the high twenties, low thirties in the winter, and mid-teens in the summer.
Scott Sorrell (00:26:26):
Lance, you said that you'll see vol of milk going up and down, depending on the heat waves that come through. And yet what Israel showed us in the webinar is that he's virtually able to mitigate all the impact, of heat stress. And so how do we do that if you're having Vos of, of, of heat come through?
Dr. Lance Baumgard (00:26:47):
Well, I, I think, I think that physics is the physics and approach is the same, you know, evaporative cooling forced air works even in relatively high human areas like Iowa. Now, does it work as well in, as it does in Israel or, or no, you lose some efficiency, but evaporative cool. I still think is the primary method of mitigating heat stress, even in relatively human areas.
Dr. Shimon Carmi (00:27:17):
I think the extent, the extent of the heat stress, and the length of the heat stress make the Midwest dairy farmer think seven times before he installs the cooling system. And, and that's, that's a pity really because if he would look to his animals before they go down and milk, they will breathe heavily. If you just look at the cow, you don't have to measure the temperature. You look at the cow, you see, the movement of the belly of the lambs. And you will realize immediately that this animal is, our herd is in, in stress. Normally when we have the first cows and not venting, but somewhat more instead of 40 breezes a minute, if you already see 50 for us, it's a time, to start cool cows. And once we start, we do not stop.
Dr. Shimon Carmi (00:28:35):
We just intend the cooling practices as the summer goes on and we reduce the number of cooling sessions for the lengths of cooling sessions at the beginning of October. And we finish at the end of October depending on, on the, on, on the weather at, at the specific here what we already, what we also see if there is a big hit stress spell during, for example, September we see a milk drop, even in the farms that are good cow co have good co cow cooling practices, the difference between them and the other one, the other ones, it is, it re it remains low in the milk for a couple of days. And then the heat spell is gone and immediately the cow cows go up while in the more moderate cooling farms, it'll take them sometimes weeks and sometimes months until the cows. For example, last year not last year, the year before 20, we had the three-week terrible heat stress in September and all the country has gone down in milk, like three or four kilos on average.
Dr. Glen Aines (00:30:18):
Yeah, I think we're some, sometimes not proactive enough here in us, in terms, of cooling our cows. I, you seem to see that a lot. I don't know if that's just, you know, people not anticipating it or they're concerned about the expense associated with it or whatever. I just don't think we're, we're generally speaking proactive enough, particularly in the north.
Speaker 6 (00:30:41):
I, yeah, I think
Dr. Israel Flamenbaum (00:30:43):
Farmers, farmers think about expenses all over the world. Then, the issue is, to show the numbers. When I, when I was in the ministry, I, I walked more on the, on, let's say on the physical and, and let's say the physical aspect of cooling, how to cool the cows when to cool the cows, how much to cool the cows. But when I retired, my job will be consulting farms on how to cool cows. I understood that the first thing I have to do is to show them how much money it yields. And, and that that's, that, that was the time when I created with an economist, this spreadsheet, which calculates the cost-effectiveness. And when we started putting the numbers just of feed and the, and feed, feed the efficiency and, and total milk yet without any, any numbers on fertility and health, which we are going to do now, we, we, we, we, we saw that the the the investment, it returns very, very fast.
Dr. Israel Flamenbaum (00:31:59):
So what I'm doing today in my, in my, is to, to talk money because that, that's what you have to do to talk money. It's also animal welfare. Okay. It's also sustainability. Okay. But the farmer is interested first of all, in money, and I show him that, he can make a lot of money. Or first of all, I show him that he's losing a lot of money by doing nothing. I, I, I published an article. In one of the articles you have, Scott is a farmer, stop, stop paying double taxes. You pay one tax income tax, and you pay one tax to nature. And this tax to nature is, is, is a lot of money. Stop paying this tax. At least you cannot stop paying the income tax, but, but you can stop paying the tax on nature. And, and, and then when we started putting numbers of cost of equipment and cost of operation, which is mostly electricity, we saw that the return is so fast that it is a pity. So so I think that maybe you need in the United States to dig much profoundly with your farmers on this topic, money Americans are known, as, as, as people that everything is, it is, is calculation calculated. So, so why don't you go and show them how much they're losing and how much they can stop losing, because you don't make more money in Sam, stop losing money when you cool the cows,
Dr. Glen Aines (00:33:43):
What, what Israel you were saying that you know, you pay a tax, but in reality, you're gonna pay a tax, particularly if you don't cool, dry cows, you're gonna pay that tax year after year after year because of the multi-generational effects that can occur. If you don't cool, those dry cows, until terms of cows in the future, those calves now produce less milk. And that can go on year after year after year, chef dos research has demonstrated
Scott Sorrell (00:34:11):
Israel. I believe it was in your summary of the webinar. You talked about this investment and, and that's a key, but, but there, there's also an element. You must do it, right. You use that investment correctly. Am I paraphrasing that right? And so if you wouldn't mind, maybe can you talk about what doing it right? Is, you know, whether it's the frequency and, and methodology and all those things.
Dr. Israel Flamenbaum (00:34:32):
Yeah. this is, this is another article, in the list I sent to you. It is called wind-water time and cow, that's all you need to cook properly your cows. And when I say the wind is a wind speed of per second to blow air and to evaporate the water, water is good sprinkling. And I show pictures of well, socked cows and not a well-socked cow. So if, if you use fine droplets and, and this, and not enough pressure these droplets will not penetrate, will not sock the cow. So you, you don't cool. The third one is time, and these are the six common hours because people think that if you cool the cows for 10 minutes, you did the job. You cannot, you cannot eliminate 3000 Watts of heat in 10 minutes.
Dr. Israel Flamenbaum (00:35:27):
So you need a lot of time. And this is the article I described. And the last one is the cow. So you ask me, what, what does it, what, what is this? This means cow. I say I come, I visit a lot of farms that have the sprinklers walking, the fence walking, and the cows laying down, which means that they, they, they they're they, they don't make the effort to, to make sure that the cows are in the cooling side, in the field when they are operating the system. So if you use these four pillars, you will get a good calling it's it's, it's so simple. It's so let's say obviously that sometimes I, I, I take out the the the few words that remain in my head and say, why don't they others understand it?
Scott Sorrell (00:36:20):
Yeah. And I recall, a trip I took to China one time, and we were at, a very nice dairy. And the gentleman had this, this amazing cooling system with the big radiators at the end of the barn that would pull the air, the cooled air across. And we were, and it was hot that day. And we were asking him about it. And so he decided to turn it on and we should have already been on. And it worked amazingly how cool we and the cows got after he turned it on. So, anyway, it's a funny story.
Dr. Israel Flamenbaum (00:36:53):
It sounds funny, but this is the reality on so many farms, unfortunately.
Dr. Lance Baumgard (00:36:58):
Yeah. I had you, you made a comment about drinking water, which I would have a year ago agreed with you. Bob Collier and I got some data now that demonstrate that lactating cows when they get heat stress, the lower per producing cows will drink more, but the actual high producing cows drink less water consumption goes down. And I think Joe McFadden also has some similar data now. So it's two different experiments kind of showing the same thing. So I wonder if our, of, of drinking is dependent upon how much milk they're making. In other words, if a cow needs to maintain hydration, one easy way of doing that is just shutting off the memory tap, right? Reducing milk yield is one way that she can maintain healthy hydration. But, and, and the reason I'm, I guess I'm bringing that up is cuz one of the things I hear from Midwest farmers especially is they don't like cooling cows because it creates a sloppy dairy, you know, the alleyways get sloppy and wet and they have to pay to get rid of that water. And then the cows get dirtier and stuff like that because
Dr. Shimon Carmi (00:38:23):
They don't cool cows in the right spot, if they will cool them in a holding pen, they would not get the sloppy alleys.
Dr. Lance Baumgard (00:38:32):
So that's an interesting thing. Simonon, you know, the pro I don't know if it's a problem, but one of our, especially on larger dairies, they want their parlor used as much as possible. They rarely want the parlor shutting down. So that the holding pin rarely has an open spot. Do you know what I mean? So they would need to create, essentially a new completely pen for these holdings, what
Dr. Shimon Carmi (00:38:58):
Wes,
Dr. Israel Flamenbaum (00:38:59):
This is what we do in Israel. I started doing it in Mexico because I had to call cows on 5,000 cows farms were, where they were milking for 23 hours, in a carousel. So I, I, another article in your, in your list Scott about Lata dairy farm in, in, in, in, in, in northern Mexico. So we build special cooling yards and we use them to let's say expand the time that cows are getting called when they are before and after milk sessions. And another depends on calling the cows in between milking sessions. So everything is feasible the lens, but what, what, but what do you say, about drinking water? I will tell you how I came to this conclusion. Then, when I did my Ph.D., I had two groups one side called cows, another side on cool cows.
Dr. Israel Flamenbaum (00:39:56):
And at that time professor Mimi Belman that unfortunately passed away told me, yeah, he passed away 9 90, 4 years old. Oh, hehe, he, he said to me, Israel, why, why won't you put, put flow meter in each one of the sites? And then we will measure the amount of water consumed, on one side, the control group, and on the other side, which is the water troughs and the sprinklers. And at the end of the summer, we measured and it was the same amount. Unfortunately, I was not clever enough to put it in one of my articles coming out from my Ph.D., but this evidence is the basis of what I'm saying. If you will come with new information, it'll be very interesting. I didn't know it,
Dr. Lance Baumgard (00:40:48):
I'm very sorry to hear this. Well, Mimi Biman, he's
Dr. Shimon Carmi (00:40:50):
It's every chance it's maybe due to the difference in the genetics of cows, the cows that are producing more milk, the Roman is much more efficient and therefore, maybe they, they drink less water. I think one of your friends in Israel, you know, Zi, is right. Of course. So he has a lot of data about specific cows in the 20 old years that he's measuring feed consumption and production. And he found extreme differences, in the efficiency of milk production of high-producing cows. So I think the question of how much water the cow drinks is, is, is a very important issue. And what you have found that farmers in the Midwest don't like to cool cows and the other research that shows that cows that are producing more milk, drink, less water is, is, is very interesting.
Dr. Lance Baumgard (00:42:16):
Well, I, I don't know if I should say they don't like cooling cows. They don't like having to pay to get rid of water. Right. So when they see the, when they see the waterers are the sprinklers running and there's not a cow underneath of it, it frustrates them.
Dr. Shimon Carmi (00:42:31):
Right? Yeah. Well, we have found in Israel also a solution for that sensor that will turn off, turn on the cooling system, in the feeding manager only if there are four cows around the fan.
Dr. Lance Baumgard (00:42:48):
Yeah.
Dr. Shimon Carmi (00:42:49):
We have a few farms that are, have installed these sensors. So in our technology, everything, you know, is, is, is available feasible estimate of the price. And I understand the farmer that doesn't like to see the sprinklers runoff and the cows are lying down, in the cubicles. Sure. It's is frustrating.
Dr. Lance Baumgard (00:43:24):
So I assume you guys are, Israel has looked at your feedline cooling versus these holding pens that you're talking about. And you've do decided that the holding pans is a better, more efficient, more profitable route.
Dr. Shimon Carmi (00:43:41):
It's more profitable. But at the end, at the end of the day, when production is going up, we, we would have to use them both. And we already have farms. They are bringing cows into the holding pen between milkings and they keep on cooling them. When they come back to feed at the feed manager, this is this, this, these are not very popular, but I think that the farm, it, I did this research in is doing that for maybe 30 years. Now they have a polygon, so they have two holding pens. And on top of that, they have a cooling system in the feed man, including locks. So when the cows come from the holding pan, either from milking or from cooling, they will lock 'em down, in the feeding man for about 40 minutes and then automatically will release them. So they'd be in using both systems for many, many years,
Dr. Israel Flamenbaum (00:44:55):
My, the answer was if I'm limited, where I, where I should put my, my first dollar, and then I say, this is more efficient because in any case, you need to put cooling in the, in the waiting gear. You will not hold cows in summer in the ordering, in the ING pen without calling. And if you have enough time to, and you don't have long distances and you can bring the cows between milking sessions, it's, it's fine. It's okay. But, but as humans said we want to be on the excited and also in the lymph farm they have, when cows go back from, from, from the cooling yard or the cooling, the waiting yard after being cooled six times per day, they have a very effective system. They have a sensor for every fan within that, in that case, it's not sprinklers.
Dr. Israel Flamenbaum (00:45:54):
It is misters in front of the fan, which gives, a, a fine mist. But if this fine mist will be without the Windstream of the fan, it will blow in the air. But when it comes with the fan, it hits the cow and wets the cow. Somehow, remember the cows are coming back, from the cooling yard. They are still a little bit wetted. So you add humidity, you add, let's say moisture, and you cool the cows. So it costs it. This system costs not much. And, and you, and you are on the safe side and, and you could see the numbers of the lymph farm. They are much above. They are with almost zero hours above 39.2. While in the other study that I showed, the good farms were four or five hours, and these, or five hours can make the difference in 10 percentage units or two little small of milk. So, the clever farmers in Israel don't take the risk. They call the cows obligatory the six hours, and then they give an additional time for the cows if they want it, it's better to be more than short.
Dr. Lance Baumgard (00:47:19):
Yeah. Yeah. Shae, I've been to Ron Solomon, you probably know. Yeah. Took me to, a Cbus near the dead sea, and it was the lowest
Dr. Shimon Carmi (00:47:34):
Kalia
Dr. Lance Baumgard (00:47:34):
Dairy on earth. Is that your, is that your CBOTs that you're talking about?
Dr. Shimon Carmi (00:47:40):
No, no, no. It's 200 meters below me.
Dr. Israel Flamenbaum (00:47:44):
Look in this, in this time you mentioned they recorded one, one other 22 F night. Last summer I ask the farmer, what are you doing there? He says I am washing my cows day night.
Dr. Shimon Carmi (00:48:00):
Do they?
Scott Sorrell (00:48:02):
Yeah. You know speaking of water, and we know that water is, is at a premium there in Israel. So are there any concerns about using water to cool cows?
Dr. Israel Flamenbaum (00:48:12):
I, I say it in my lecture, we are, we are in another phase, we started desalinating water and we have an excess of water. All, the big cities consume consuming this water. And we recycle 80%. We are number one in the world, also in recycle recycling water from the big cities. So we are not short on water anymore, but we all were raised Shon and me when we were young, every, every class in, in, in, in school was save water, save water, water. But, but, but today we don't have, we don't have to say water. And, and more that we, we cycle even the water oh. Used to produce meat and then electricity. So it is not spending the water.
Dr. Shimon Carmi (00:49:08):
I think in 10 years California will not suffer from a water shortage. I have heard that they're doing very large products in desalinating the ocean water. And at the end of the day, this is, this is the destiny of all of us as changes in the world. And I remember the time that I came to California and they were irrigating Alfa by flooding back in the eighties, but not anymore. And so I think Israel, because we have one, one city that is very close to the red sea, and we have we have DS there and we started to desalinate red sea waters, I think 40 years ago, maybe 50 years ago. And by now I think more than 50% of the water consumed in Israel is desalinated water.
Dr. Israel Flamenbaum (00:50:15):
And, and 80% of this water that we use in our houses is recycled for agriculture. And we pump to the south of Israel. The lymph farm, for example, is in the middle of the desert, but not anymore because he is now surrounded with alls and, and with, with trees and it changed climate there, nights used to be very cool and, and dry. And now it is, it is humid like in the the coastal part
Dr. Shimon Carmi (00:50:44):
Jaline farm is, it is very unique because for many, many years it is been managed by women for maybe 40 years. This is very unique.
Scott Sorrell (00:50:58):
Yeah. Very interesting. Gentlemen, are there any big issues that we need to address before we close out here? You have
Dr. Shimon Carmi (00:51:05):
To cool cows.
Dr. Israel Flamenbaum (00:51:06):
Yeah.
Scott Sorrell (00:51:09):
Very well. Well then that we'll call the last call and ask each of you to kind of give us one or two key takeaways from this that a dairy farmer a nutritionist could use on their farm. So, and why don't we start Glen, why don't we start with you?
Dr. Glen Aines (00:51:25):
I kind of go back to my comment. I said earlier about you know, the need to be a little more proactive in terms of, you know, what our dairies are doing, to cool cows. You might recall, a few years ago, we tried to, to do kind of a series of weather reports where we looked out onto the, you know, the future forecast and just tried to give people some sense for here, it's coming, you know, it's time to start doing something. And, and that's probably true. I think the other big challenge is at least in the United States, we have a lot of different kinds of climates here. A lot of different cooling system needs, and for people to be able to figure out what system is best for them, our operation most cost-effective. And so where I used to think, maybe we're about done doing cooling research. I start to, after this presentation by Israel, I started wondering, man, we gotta go back to the drawing board and start looking at it some more. So that's my two bits, Scott.
Dr. Israel Flamenbaum (00:52:28):
I, I, I will tell you something. I, I was asked and I am heading a scientific committee for the IDF and we have two years to present our work report. And this report is exactly what you said. We have, we, we, our, our mission is to let's say, screen the different cl conditions actual and expected in the future and cooling systems and try to recommend the appropriate cooling system for every kind of climate and, and dairy farming. So this commitment, this team scientific team of 10 experts. One of them is Albert Bri, from Florida. And we are working trying to, to, to bring work farmers the message of how to call properly the cows, wherever you live. Excellent. And also, and also we will include this economical child calculation to help farmers calculate because the only way to convince farmers to invest and make effort, because not, it's not only to invest money, but to make the effort, to, to call the cows and, and, and, and re and resolve the problems of mud, et cetera, et cetera. The only way to do, to convince him is to show him how much money he will save
Scott Sorrell (00:54:03):
Very well Shae, any final thoughts?
Dr. Shimon Carmi (00:54:07):
Yeah, I think coming from practical dairy farming for me, the main part is looking at the cow. If you look at the cow, she will tell you exactly what she needs, especially in terms of co-ruling, because, the amount of heat the cow produces and the limitation of sweating will tell you exactly what he needs. And if you do it right, you will see right away on the cow. I have one farm that had a very bad cooling system until a year ago tell safe because they have a small holding pan with a low roof. They could not use the holding pan. And it took me half a year to convince them to put in the cooling, effective, effective cooling system, in the feed manager. And last year in January, they were producing 35 kilos of milk this year.
Dr. Shimon Carmi (00:55:26):
They have produced 40 kilos of milk. And so this is, this is the extent of changes that we still see in Israel when a dairy farmer that he has to invest, and he was having investment. Okay. Because now the fans are very expensive. He used the fence with the flippers and but you can see that, after a year after one summer of fusing, he will see the difference. And last December I visited the farm and I saw cows breathing heavily. This, this year, even in September, at the end of the summer, the cows were comfortable. They were comfortable. So cooling cows you come from the, from, from the research, I come from the dairy, and my advantage is that when I look at the string of cows, I know what they should look like. I know what they need, and this is something that is not easy to teach in a university. And so what Israel is offering textbook to know what the cow needs in every part of the world, as far as cooling is, is needed.
Scott Sorrell (00:57:10):
All right. Thank you. Shamon it's been great seeing you again, look forward to seeing you in person sometime soon. Lance, any final words from you?
Dr. Lance Baumgard (00:57:18):
Yeah. Just, I can agree with almost everyone. I think Shamo mentioned earlier about the new Israeli, the nutritionist. I think they could also use some more information about how feed supplements can help. Like you mentioned earlier, right? They're not,
Dr. Shimon Carmi (00:57:36):
No, we still run Solomon.
Dr. Lance Baumgard (00:57:38):
I sent Ron an email right now. There's no magic bullet, right. But proper nutrition and proper nutritional strategies can be a key component of a summer strategy.
Dr. Shimon Carmi (00:57:52):
It is.
Scott Sorrell (00:57:54):
Yep. Thank you, Lance and Dr. Flaman BA I'll give you the floor for the final time.
Dr. Israel Flamenbaum (00:58:02):
Well, I think, I, I think that I, I, I already said the the the the most important thing is to do things properly. The knowledge exists. There are so many articles, so many research reports, everything is known. Everything is written, just do it and do it according to the recommendations. But to convince people to do it, you have to stimulate them. And I said before, what is the way to stimulate them? It's to show them the cost-effectiveness of, of, of the effort, they're going to do. That's it.
Scott Sorrell (00:58:49):
All right. Well, thank
Dr. Israel Flamenbaum (00:58:50):
You for that. It, it, it works, it works in so many countries. I'm running projects that it is significantly working
Scott Sorrell (00:58:59):
Well, thank you very much, Dr. Flaman BA thank you, gentlemen, for joining us here today. I think we can all agree that heat can have a devastating impact on our animals, as well as our pocketbooks. And, and the one thing, you know, that, that my key takeaway from Dr. Flaman Bob, is that it's completely possible to mitigate the impact of, of heat. And so you know, there are some steps we've gotta take, but I I'm certainly enthusiastic about that. So also wants to thank our loyal listeners for once again, spending some time with us here at the pub. And we hope to see you next time here at the real science exchange, where it's always happy hour, and you're always among friends. All right, cheer folks. Cheers.
Speaker 7 (00:59:45):
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