Joining together around the pub to discuss methane emission metrics are experts Dr. Joe McFadden and Dr. Peri Rosenstein.
Guests: Dr. Joe McFadden, Cornell University and Dr. Peri Rosenstein, Environmental Defense Fund
Joining together around the pub to discuss methane emission metrics are experts Dr. Joe McFadden and Dr. Peri Rosenstein.
Dr. McFadden, an animal science professor at Cornell University, has focused much of his research and career on studying the interactions between nutrition, environment and animal food production.
After discussing mitigating enteric methane emissions during the Real Science Lecture series, more than 600 people listened to the episode. In fact, Dr. McFadden’s research in defending the dairy industry has been highlighted in both The Hill and Time magazines.
Dr. McFadden began the conversation by mentioning he ultimately believes a percentage of total greenhouse gas emissions is methane. He went on to mention that reducing methane emissions does enhance production, and the industry should be in favor of the shift. 9:04
While methane remains a major contributor to agricultural food production, livestock emissions from the glimpse of total greenhouse gas emissions remain relatively low, raising questions on where the focus of enteric methane mitigation should be.
Progress is moving the needle from management, genetics, nutrition and enhanced efficiency.
Dr. Rosenstein and Dr. McFadden’s research focuses on South Asia, specifically India, as there are nearly 75 million small dairy farmers and about 300 million buffalo. Dr. McFadden shared that while the country produces around 20% of total global dairy production, it is also the highest producer of methane. 15:30
Cattle are a source of national food security and are a way of life for many people, Dr. Rosenstein added, mentioning the goal is not to pivot completely but instead offer resources to optimize cattle productivity through nutrition, animal health and breeding. 20:22
In addition to the Environmental Defense Fund studies in South Asia, Scott Sorrell, podcast host and director of global marketing for Balchem, asked about any other current research taking place. 22:03
Just recently, Dr. McFadden said the plans and proposals for the additional construction at the Cornell University research facility were implemented. He added he believes the opportunity to pivot not only allows his team the position to test the next solutions that reduce enteric methane but to continue acquiring various green feeding units. 23:25
Dr. McFadden then shifted the conversation to highlight the importance in studying feed duration through green feed study trials. Whether three weeks or three months long, he mentioned they offer a greater understanding when analyzing lactation, supplementation or even replacement strategies. 28:21
When discussing strategies for enteric methane mitigation, Dr. Rosenstein mentioned they not only have to have proper feed additives but also be safe for both humans and animals alike. 32:31
Wrapping up the conversation, Dr. McFadden summarized the urgency in being transparent on effective additives and encouraged feed manufacturing and feed additive companies to think about markets in new countries as an opportunity to collaborate and expand. 44:10
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Scott Sorrell (00:08):
Good evening everyone, and welcome to the Real Science Exchange, the podcast we're leading scientists and industry professionals meet over a few drinks to discuss the latest ideas and trends in animal nutrition. Hi, I'm Scott Sorell, one of your hosts here tonight at The Real Sense Exchanges, and we're excited to be back in the virtual pub with one of the kind experts in methane emissions. And I'm really looking forward to the conversation tonight about how we can mitigate emissions going forward. Tonight we welcome two professionals to, to discuss enteric methane emissions. Dr. Joe McFadden, you're no stranger to the Real Science Exchange. You actually appeared on episode number three believe it or not. And that was one that, that's been a very popular episode. I looked at it earlier today and there's been over 1500 downloads, so very popular. And it's also hard to believe that we're already at number 65, and by the time this drops we'll be at 66. So, Joe, since this is not your first time here, you know the drill. So what's in your glass tonight?
Dr. Joe McFadden (01:11):
Oh, I have a special treat for you. Okay. I know that you have been doing this podcast, you said 60 episodes or something? I said I gotta, I gotta bring the best drink you've ever seen. Okay. So I'm bringing it. Okay, here it is, and we'll gonna show it to you. All right. And what, this is a 50 50 blend of whiskey and guess what? New York Pure maple syrup that Joe McFadden produced at my Sugarbush my first season producing Maple. And there it is. It tastes amazing. And to make this even better, okay, cuz I said that's, that's not good enough. I gotta, I gotta step it up a notch. When I walked out the door this morning, there was a big icicle hanging from a maple tree, a sugar maple
Dr. Joe McFadden (01:50):
Ripped that off and then I put that in the back of my truck, which is full about a foot of snow. And that icicle is in the glass right now. So this is it.
Scott Sorrell (01:57):
That is awesome. That may be our best story so far, Joe. Yeah. Thank you for that. You know, I've, I've got a bit of a, a story as well back on episode number three. We noticed while, while, while we were or at least I noticed that you kept draining your glass, you'd empty it, then you'd set it down, and then a little bit later you'd drain it again. And we're like, what's going on? We found out afterwards that your wife was there filling it up, so, yeah.
Dr. Joe McFadden (02:26):
Yeah, she was running, I live my old house. She was running up and down to the stairs and filling my glass for me. Cause I'll just keep drinking it a little bit different. My wife's not here today. But I am in a work environment enjoying my beverage.
Scott Sorrell (02:39):
Well, that's good. Yeah, just don't let anybody know. All right. Very well. So, Joe I, I see you've brought another guest with you tonight. Would you mind introducing Perry for us real quick and how'd you get to know her? Yeah,
Dr. Joe McFadden (02:51):
This is Dr. Perry Rosenstein from the Environmental Defense Fund. I had the privilege of working with Perry now for about a year on, on a, on a couple different projects. I think it'd be better just to let Perry describe sort of her background and what she's currently doing with the Environmental Defense Fund. But, and also what is edf? Huh? That'd be helpful.
Scott Sorrell (03:12):
Yeah, sure. Great.
Dr. Peri Rosenstein (03:13):
Thanks Joe. And it's a pleasure to be here. So I'm senior scientist of Livestock systems at the Environmental Defense Fund. The Environmental Defense Fund is an international organization that addresses the biggest environmental challenges. And our philosophy is to build a vital earth for all, which we aim to do by finding solutions that address these environmental issues while supporting economic development. And we do this by combining science, economics, partnerships and advocacy. And we're targeting the climate crisis through both mitigation and adaptation strategies. And this is certainly true for livestock. And that takes me to what we're talking about today. So with livestock, our focus is on enteric methane emissions as well as manure management when it comes to methane, although there are a lot of other ways that livestock may be connected to the climate. And the strategies that we're looking at are, are oftentimes different by region and production system. And we can get into some more of that today.
Scott Sorrell (04:13):
Oh, awesome. It's glad to have you here, Perry. So the same as Joe's drill. What's, what's in your glass tonight?
Dr. Peri Rosenstein (04:20):
Well, I have a large beer mug here of some hard cider from New Jersey.
Scott Sorrell (04:26):
Awesome.
Dr. Peri Rosenstein (04:27):
You doing today?
Scott Sorrell (04:28):
Dr. Zimmerman, he's usually our co-host. He's gonna be very envious of that. And finally, I can't forget to introduce my co-host. Tonight we're bringing back Dr. Ken Sanderson once again from the Bkm team. Ken, thanks for joining us tonight. And you drinking anything special?
Dr. Ken Sanderson (04:45):
Well, Scott, I've resorted to my usual podcast beverage, which is Olsen Canadian.
Scott Sorrell (04:52):
I wouldn't expect anything less. Ken.
Dr. Joe McFadden (04:55):
And I like that maple leaf cat. I really, that's good. That's perfect. We love, it's
Dr. Ken Sanderson (04:59):
In keeping with your, it's in keeping with your theme, Joe, so,
Dr. Joe McFadden (05:03):
Excellent.
Scott Sorrell (05:03):
Thanks. Yeah. Awesome. And tonight I, I've got a, an old standby. I've got a woodford's, but I did pour a double. It's, it's been that kind of week so far, guys. So anyway, in the spirit of the pub, let's raise a glass. Cheers. Everyone cheer
Dr. Joe McFadden (05:17):
Everybody. Cheers. Cheer. I'm not gonna have much left here in about 10 minutes.
Scott Sorrell (05:25):
We'll, we'll break and let's you fill, fill up again, so, okay, no worries.
Speaker 5 (05:28):
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Scott Sorrell (05:50):
So, Joe you had a terrific webinar back in March during the Real Science Lecture series. To date, we've had more than 600 people that have listened to the live recording or, or the recording that we've put out on YouTube. The, the title of that talk was mitigating Enteric Methane Emissions. How Can We Speed Up Speed Up Progress? What do you think made that webinar so popular with folks?
Dr. Joe McFadden (06:18):
Well, obviously it's a hot topic. People are, people want solutions and they want 'em now. I think, but there's so many unanswered questions. And so, you know, what I really enjoyed about this process, and for those that really know me in my research program over the last decade now you know, I didn't start out as an enteric methane guide. And when I came to Cornell, though, there was a lot of opportunity to, to grow the program to, you know, explore other interests. And, and I realized that, you know, this is a real unique chance for me to, to sort of study the field not having sort of any prior sort of, sort of not having any bias, you know, and just making sort of a broad sort of review of what works and what doesn't. And that would really position me well, I thought to, to think about how my research program is going to evolve here in the future.
Dr. Joe McFadden (07:11):
So that particular seminar was sort of the culmination of that effort where I took time to talk to the experts in the field over the last few months. I was about 20, 20 plus scientists from across the world to gain their insight. And and I, I really wanted to share that insight and share that experience that I had and not just to help sort of my own progression, but to, to help the scientific community as a whole, sort of think about what we need to address in the short term to, to get to meaningful impact.
Scott Sorrell (07:47):
All right. Very well, you know, kind of as an overview, right? Farting cows get a lot of cliques you know, on social media, but, but in reality how much contribution does the food production system have in terms of generating greenhouse gases? How does it compare to some of the other generators?
Dr. Joe McFadden (08:08):
Yeah, as a, you know, as a, a percentage of total greenhouse gas emissions particularly methane is, you know, it is a major teric methane is a major contributor in terms of agricultural food production. I don't think there's gonna be much, much debate there, especially from ruminants beef and dairy cattle. But as a percentage of total, when you look at total greenhouse gas emissions on the basis of CO2 equivalence, you know, emissions from, from livestock are, are, are quite low. And this raises a lot of arguments about what, what should we focus on? Should we, should we really be focused on enteric methane mitigation? Well, my argument there is, is that methane is definitely a climate pollutant. It has, has a high potency relative to carbon dioxide. And, you know, I see this from a slightly different perspective.
Dr. Joe McFadden (09:06):
I think about this from the fact that methane itself represents sort of lost energy, right? This is a form of energy that's being released by the cow that could be potentially retained for other purposes. Now, that's easier said than done for a variety of reasons, but when we try to think about efficiency of meat or milk production we really want to capture as much possible gross dietary energy to make meat and milk. And if we have an opportunity here to reduce methane then, then potentially we have the opportunity to, you know, conserve that energy for meat and milk production, which is only gonna benefit the farmer and it can benefit the cow as well potentially. So to the critics in the world, I argue that if dairy and beef production can be part of the solution and reduce methane emissions from our atmosphere but at simultaneously enhancing so the success of our industries, and we should do it we absolutely should do it.
Scott Sorrell (10:13):
Joe, you've been recently featured in some high profile publications, the Hill and Time Magazine, and you were defending the dairy industry. Can you talk a little bit to us about what you talked about in those articles?
Dr. Joe McFadden (10:28):
Yeah, I never thought I'd be doing this. Have you asked me five years ago? Again, Cornell provided a lot of opportunities for enhanced visibility. And, you know, I think the definition of what an animal scientist is needs to evolve with time. And we have this debate in our own department when I talk to my colleagues at various stages of their career, and you know, I think we have to really advocate for our industry, and we have to make sure that we do a good job being transparent about you know, what works and what doesn't. The industry is not perfect. These beef and cattle industries are not perfect, no industry is. But I think scientists have sort of responsibility to help clear the narrative, to address misconceptions. And that's difficult to do. If you ask any scientist that is, that should be difficult to do.
Dr. Joe McFadden (11:22):
We are trained to be scientists, right? We, we, we train, we're trained to communicate as scientists and, but we're not really trained to communicate to the average gym with the grocery store. Okay? We're just not, we're not trained to do that. I, I have a personal interest and to, and to be a, a better communicator to, to all, not just scientists, I think. And, and by doing so, I, I hope that I can address some of the misconceptions. So the, the articles and the hill and, and in time were, were, we're there to one focus on this, this debate regarding the natural carbon cycle and that maybe we shouldn't be focused on on dairy and beef production because of that. And then the most recent ones were on seaweed. Is it really the solution? Maybe we need to sort of be more transparent about what doesn't work potentially with seaweed feeding and enteric methane. And then the time when it was focused on what are the current barriers to really expedite real meaningful solutions for various production systems across the world. And so I really just want to put it out there and, and, and showcase that we can do better and we are doing better and the future looks bright.
Scott Sorrell (12:35):
Yeah. Good. You know, and
Dr. Peri Rosenstein (12:38):
If I might add I do think it's really important to recognize the, the strides that have been made towards improving sustainability and efficiency in the industry already. And so this is looking at extending solution sets that are both beneficial to, to farmers as well as improving the condition for the climate.
Scott Sorrell (12:56):
Yeah. Thank you for
Dr. Joe McFadden (12:57):
That, apparently, right? I mean, in terms of the, you know, just look at Europe, look at the us. I mean, efficiency looks phenomenal. Look at Canada can, okay you got your, your, your beer there. But how do we make those gains in efficiency? Gains sustainability efforts translate across various production systems? I think it's really important, and Perry and I are really focused heavily on in South Asia, specifically India. We have several efforts, both collaborative and non-collaborative, where we're trying to think about how to help farmers of, at every scale of production be better farmers and be, but, but also protect the environment at the same time.
Scott Sorrell (13:39):
Joe. So Perry mentioned that we've made a lot of progress so far. I'm sure there's a lot more progress to be made. What are some of the, the near term things that we've done to, to create that progress?
Dr. Joe McFadden (13:51):
This isn't this, for all those that are probably listening to this podcast, they already realize this, but it's management, genetics, and nutrition. I mean, those are the top three that really have, have really enhanced efficiency. That's great for the us. It's great for Europe. But how do you do that in countries with 75 million plus small holder farmers? Like, how do you do that? That, that is not easy to do. And the only reason why we have done it is we've dramatically changed our production system. And that direction of change is not gonna be applicable to every country that is has a developing country countries of the emerging economies. It's not gonna be directly applicable. So we have to, we can't ignore them because we're trying to reduce global greenhouse gas emissions, and they're a significant contributor. And we, yeah, I'll leave it at
Scott Sorrell (14:44):
That. Yeah, no, but let's talk about that, right? You guys decided to focus on India, and and you said there's a lot of progress to be made there. Yes. And, and so how'd you pick India or Southeast Asia?
Dr. Joe McFadden (14:58):
Well, no, this all started with the Environmental Defense Fund. They I blamed them
Dr. Joe McFadden (15:46):
And they're doing it using this production system. It also is a, is a high producer of, of methane in terms of, of, of, of all the countries on the planet. And certainly enteric fermentation, rice production contribute to this. So I thought, well, hey, a lot of ruminants high Harry di dairy production state, what could we do? And, and how can we help? And it's not about going over and, and, and trying to, you know, say, well, we're gonna do X, Y, and Z. It's about going over, learning from them, learning about what the industry's currently doing, and, and trying to work with them to help them to, to just to be a little bit better. And so, in this process I had a chance to travel to Gujarat in Bangal India with the team from E D F in late 2022.
Dr. Joe McFadden (16:43):
And in that process, we had a chance to meet with the National Dairy Development Board, or N D D B. This is a, a governing authority that has a, a heavy influence of over dairy production practices across India. And they have a very well developed sort of extension network where they can educate farmers at this small sort of production level. You know, every farmer's producing maybe one to five animals. It's not, it's not very large. And so we're asking, what can we do? How can we contribute? Well, the National Dairy Development Board has been had initiated a ration balancing program. This is a program to help enhance utility ration balancing for MD and dairy farmers. And so I said, okay, maybe we can help here. We have obviously the home of the C and cs car, Cornell net carbohydrate and protein system, and, and what, how could we contribute?
Dr. Joe McFadden (17:30):
And so with working with Peri, and we've developed a sort of a, I think, a concrete plan moving forward here to one, better understand feed chemistry throughout India. This sounds, it's a, it's a difficult challenge. It's had a lot of states, a lot of terrain to cover. But we're gonna work systematically or starting with a pilot study in Gujarat to really go out, talk to a couple hundred small holder farmers learn about the feeds that they're feeding, collect feed samples, work with a commercial lab to fully define the, the, the nutrient profile using contemporary approaches. And then integrate that within our sort of C N C P S nutrition model with the help of my colleague and mentor, Dr. Mike Van Amberg. And, you know, in the process, once we have that information, we'll go out and work with that village, and we're actually gonna do an actual study where we're gonna look at the status quo versus follow the feeding recommendation we provide based on that feed chemistry data that we have. And we're gonna do an eight week intervention, and we're gonna see what happens. And you know what? We realize that adherence is not gonna be great, but in this process, we're gonna learn about what works and what doesn't in terms of adherence. We want to, we want to be able to identify those barriers, and so we can close 'em.
Scott Sorrell (18:44):
So I've been to India as well, right? And, and I've seen those small farms, and to me, they look just desperately inefficient. So if you really, to me, it seems like if you really wanna make an impact, we need to move away from those small farms, and maybe I'm just a little bit North America centric, but to move to larger, more efficient, more productive animals. And that's the real way to make progress. Now,
Dr. Joe McFadden (19:11):
Disagree with this, God, god disagree with you here big time. Yeah. Because you, I had the same mentality when I went over there, right? I mean, before I went over there, I had the same mentality like that, that is an American mentality, if I had to say, that's probably what we think. And, but when you go over there, you see how important producing milk is for each individual farmer. To them, this is their way of life. It's every night they go, they, they drop off the milk, they get paid for it. Yeah. A significant portion of their income. You've got 75 million people in this country, in that country, in India producing dairy. It's, that's, that's a way of life. And so I think enhancing the efficiency at a smallholder production setting ensures that, you know, their net daily income goes up, you know, they're, they're gonna have better nutrition. Obviously we all know milk's a nutrient dense food and I think they're gonna be better off for that. And when you talk to those folks, you talk to the folks at, in n db, national Dairy Development Board, or we talk to the farmers you know, this is their way of life. It's not going to change. It is unreasonable for us to sort of say, Hey, let's go reduce the ruminative population. It's not going to happen. Right? Right. So I'll leave it at
Scott Sorrell (20:21):
That. No, I get it.
Dr. Peri Rosenstein (20:22):
Yeah. I have to echo what Joe said. Cattle are a, a way of life, and they are a source of food security and nutritional security and deeply connected to their livelihoods. And so certainly the goal is not to change what they're doing, but to contribute in whatever way we can to help them optimize the productivity of their cattle through animal nutrition, animal health, and breeding strategies. And a lot of that work is being done on the ground there. And the goal is to see what we can add to that conversation.
Scott Sorrell (20:53):
Yeah, I completely understand and appreciate that. I, I, I learned when I was over there, you know, one of the first foods that infants are given after birth is, is cows milk. And, you know, it really is part of their culture and, and part of who they are. So, no, I, I applaud you guys for your work
Dr. Joe McFadden (21:10):
There. It's very much advancing. So I, I thought, Hey, there, there's very little information about the production system over there, but they're attempting to register every single sort of farm system. So every animal can be identified, you know, on a database. I've seen a database that a mole had, which is one of their major milk unions over there. And they pull up an individual farmer, they know when the animal was last bred, and they know what the milk component test was, which gets evaluated every evening at the collection center. So data integration is, is there, I see it happening. And it's only gonna get better. There's also cool stuff on sort of using sort of biogas sort of collection sort of on farm. And so they can use that as a fuel for, as a, for a cooking fuel, but also use the slurry to create fertilizers. So they're using innovative sort of practices like that to give the farmer extra income. So I can't wait to see what happens.
Scott Sorrell (22:03):
Yeah. You know, I wanna change directions when you guys just a little bit. You know, I, I consider Cornell being on the cutting edge of understanding methane emissions from dairy cattle. You've been putting in some new facilities there, and, and I wanted to give you guys an opportunity to talk about that. Exactly. What are you putting in mm-hmm.
Dr. Joe McFadden (22:25):
Well, it's so much going on. I mean, I'm not just trying to hype everybody up about this, but cuz, but I'm just rather state the facts. A couple years ago I had a chance to acquire support for respiration chambers. So that really kicked it off. And so we actually just, I think, picked the contractor and the meeting on Friday to, to talk about the contractor we picked. And that construction's supposed to start next month and conclude by October. There's four respiration chambers, completely climate controlled feed and water intake in real time. We can go from 30 degrees Fahrenheit to 105 degrees Fahrenheit highly programmable. We can measure all the gases we wanna be concerned about co2, hydrogen, methane, ammonia, nitrous oxide and also oxygen consumption. And so we think this is a real pivotal tool for us to really think about the next you know, evolution, sorry the next version of C N C P nutrition model, but also allow us to, to position as well to test the next solutions that reduce enteric methane.
Dr. Joe McFadden (23:25):
In addition that momentum led to the, you know, acquiring various green feeded units. For our farm. We continue to grow that number. We're currently at three. We anticipate acquiring more here in the near future, also expanding our ability to do individual intake measurements. We're currently right around 120 cows that we can measure individual intake on anticipate getting that up to around 160 to 180 cows for the number of production trials that we have planned. We're gonna need it. But most importantly, which I was, I was stunned yesterday, I found out about this Cornell College of Agriculture and Life Sciences had this proposal submission request called moonshots. And in there faculty could propose faculty positions for their department. I think there was 2029 proposals. My proposal was one of, I think eight that was approved.
Dr. Joe McFadden (24:21):
And it focuses on greenhouse gas emissions and reducing them from livestock production. And there was three specific faculty positions that we will now recruit for. The one is a room microbiology sort of position focused in part on enteric methane. So we really need a microbiologist here at Cornell. We, we don't have one, to be honest with you. We don't have one right now. That's a true microbiologist. And as we start to study these various feed additives in greater depth, we really want to be able to understand their modes of action. Number two position is somebody focused in, in the global development arena. So we really want somebody focused on developing countries that enhance sustainable livestock production in those countries and identify the challenges and solutions. And so yeah, we're, we're taking this to heart. I mean, we're focused on India, but now we have somebody else coming on board that's gonna focus on a different country. We're taking this serious. And number three, somebody that's gonna be in the, our Dyson school and Cals focused on dairy economics. And so really focus on the carbon credit system which will be a, a later higher, but those three positions are coming on board, which is pretty exciting for us.
Scott Sorrell (25:31):
Yeah. Are those units, Joe, are they operating now
Dr. Joe McFadden (25:35):
In terms of the chambers? Yep. Now I just said the construction of those units are gonna conclude in October. And we hope to be operational by at the end of the year.
Scott Sorrell (25:46):
All right. You mentioned a little bit about funding initially. Can you talk about the funding and maybe give you an opportunity to get a little commercial for asking folks for a few more dollars,
Dr. Joe McFadden (25:57):
Scott Sorrell (26:46):
Yeah, very well. I'd like to transition a little bit to talking about some of the items that you talked about in the webinar. Of all the challenge that you described in the webinar, what do you see as the number one priority right now? And, and how do we address it?
Dr. Joe McFadden (27:01):
Yeah, so it's hard for a scientist sometimes to say just one thing. Yeah,
Dr. Joe McFadden (27:57):
How does it change with sort of diet and the animal? As you talk about animal that goes from gestational lactation, it's different diets. How does that influence influence efficacy? What happens when you decide to change an ingredient in diet? You know, what happens when you you know, if you lose efficacy after a couple weeks or months, or what, how can you restore it or maintain that reduction with alternative additives? So looking at co supplementation or replacement strategies are really needed. So long duration feeding trials are needed absolutely needed. They're not easy to do. Grad students don't like 'em
Scott Sorrell (28:34):
When you say long, how long are the full lactation?
Dr. Joe McFadden (28:37):
We're talking on this short end, three months short. Okay. I think, but yeah, full lactation. Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, we also need to think about full lifespan of an animal, right? And so there's a lot of interest to look at things that go on early on in life and sort of, so you can do something for a couple weeks and has a long-term benefit. And I think there's a lot of research that needs to go on there that just hasn't been talked about or just evaluated. And, but also the other production systems, right? We're so focused on confined dairy management styles. That's, that's easy to do, give consistent delivery of the additive, but we gotta think about alternatives for different systems.
Scott Sorrell (29:17):
Yeah.
Dr. Peri Rosenstein (29:18):
And if I might add I completely agree about the challenges with different systems. And I think also at the root of this is the challenge with measurement and making sure we have a, a standardized way of, of evaluating these products and, and figuring out what their actual EF efficacy is. Certainly the, the impacts for safety and health are important too. And, and that speaks to the shows comment about long duration studies and lifespan studies. But I think both aspects are really important.
Scott Sorrell (29:47):
Yeah. Can you talk a little bit more about those standards and, and, and measurements? Well, how are, how are we gonna do that?
Dr. Joe McFadden (29:55):
Well, so this is one of our projects with environmental Defense Fund is to explore this exact question. Ananda ura, a previous PhD student in Postoc that's leading this, this effort, you know, she's currently looking at how various tools that measure methane emissions are validated. That's sort of one component of this process. And I'll give you an example. So there's the green feed technology, which we're using it there's things that we need to study a little bit in greater depth to, to refine the technology, I believe. But it has a lot of great applicability and accessibility and, and there's a lot of science behind it already. But how do you validate a tool like that? Or, or there's, we're, we're in India, they're talking about using lasers at the, the cal side lasers to monitor emissions. How do you validate that?
Dr. Joe McFadden (30:41):
Well, a lot of the, the, the science papers that we read, and a not as brought to my attention is that, you know, they'll do this, they'll do a validation study where they'll, they'll use a a methane monitoring tool and they'll, they'll look at the how much methane was produced from that animal in the given day, right? In that particular production setting. And then they'll compare that to methane emissions that are being estimated by calculations deriv from completely independent chamber trials, all right? And so to say, oh, they're equivalent. But reality was, the environment was different, the diet was different, the animals were different. And so we really wanted to advocate for validating sort of technologies that monitor methane emissions within an individual study. There's gonna be more on this coming out in the future from, from Anand, but that's, that's, that's a high priority for us.
Dr. Joe McFadden (31:33):
In terms of yeah, the health component. Like we focus so much on percent reduction, right? Oh, 30% reduction, 50%, whatever it is, number, the number is that's only one component here. We cannot solve one problem and create another problem, right? And so we can't get too far ahead of ourselves. And so there are technologies that are being discussed that have some concerns regarding sort of their long-term efficacy or their safety. And we've gotta be extremely transparent with the consumer about what works and what does it. Cuz we can't be in a position 10 years from now where we haven't made any progress because the consumer decided, Hey, I don't want it back. Nope. Because it cows were fed that. Right? And so that's part of the process too, in this, is to really identify streamlined, sort of experimental approach that covers the, the holistic sort of perspective.
Dr. Peri Rosenstein (32:26):
Absolutely successful implementation of feed additives as a strategy for enteric methane mitigation will absolutely require products that are effective, but they also have to not cause negative environmental trade-offs, be safe for humans and animals be widely adopted by the industry, as Joe said, and certainly be accepted by consumers. So all of those boxes have to be checked for us to, to make an effective strategy.
Scott Sorrell (32:50):
Yeah. So Perry, just to make sure I've got my mind around this, so right now you guys are working on validating measurement methodology. Now is this primarily for studies or is this in preparation for measuring methane emissions at the dairy level? Mm-Hmm.
Dr. Joe McFadden (33:07):
No, I mean, we're, we're very much focused from a, from a academic research perspective. Cuz I, I think there's a lot of discussion about commercial field trials and what role do they play in this? And I see it, I see it firsthand where I have Zoom meetings with various companies and they tell me, Hey, we're working on this new technology and or something that we we're, we're talking about already and we're testing out the, these commercial labs, and it's like, well, why, why are you jumping to the commercial field trial for it? And I have some concerns, but there, there's some benefits there that we can't ignore. So for example, a commercial field trial provides you a lot of animals for treatment. I think that's really powerful. It also allows you to look at the health, the disease incidents, right?
Dr. Joe McFadden (33:55):
The fertility you know, variables that are need to be considered. I know very few universities can that can do that very well. We just don't have the animal numbers. Maybe that one they're building in Idaho can do it, but I don't think that thing's built yet. But you know, we're not in the position at Cornell to do that effectively. And so I also think there, you have to have farmers buy into technology. Like they have to believe it. They have to trust it. And one farmer telling another farmer, Hey, it worked for me, I think goes a long way sometimes. And so doing testing on commercial farms really adds to that and really helps support it's adoption. And so I think there's a role there. So yeah, from our perspective, we're really focusing on how do you do this in a, in a university trial?
Dr. Joe McFadden (34:42):
We're not thinking too hard about the commercial field aspect of this. Some would argue in that exercise where I went out and talked to virtually the various scientists, some would argue we shouldn't even be bothered measuring methane emissions as a way to define efficacy in a commercial setting. There's just too many variables in play, right? The diets are constantly changing. You can't keep the same number of animals per pound, whatever. There's a variety of potential issues. But just really focus on, you know, the, the, the milk production, the fertility and disease and, and maybe that's where the value is.
Scott Sorrell (35:14):
Yeah. But at some point we are gonna have to measure it to dairy, right? If we're giving out the carbon credits and we're gonna have to,
Dr. Joe McFadden (35:21):
So how you do that, right? And so we have cool farm tool, cool farm tool, something, and we just had a graduate student present and talk about the way to try to estimate some of the, some of the emissions. I have, I've had people, well, we're talking about technologies that can be done, you know, at the, at the parlor level, at the cow level, sort of monitor emissions. I mean, this is a, this is, you know, it's a bit of the wild west right now in terms of the technologies that are emerging to do this and do it correctly. You know, I want take a moment here to also say that our pro dairy team just also received funding as part of our, of our growing pro program here to look at emissions, often manure, right? And so that's also a big concern for a lot of farmers too, to, to know how are methane emissions changing or perhaps nitrous oxide emissions off of manure. And so we're gonna have the testing capacity now the next couple months to be able to take manure and look at the emissions off of that. So that's a new development as well.
Scott Sorrell (36:22):
Yeah. Good guys, I gotta apologize, right? I'm having a ball with this. I'm enjoying this conversation with Joe, but I wanna make sure I bring you guys in Perry, Ken, any anything you'd like to ask or, or contribute to, to the conversation?
Dr. Ken Sanderson (36:38):
It's always so great to hear Joe and his excitement about this topic. I've been listening to some of this for a while now, so it's, I'm always learning. I think I'm, I'm a little curious, as you look at, say the application of additives into a developing market like India, will, will there be a place? Can they afford them? How will that get funded for them? There's a a lot of questions around application.
Dr. Joe McFadden (37:12):
Oh, no, absolutely. And that's why we're, we've already had that independent thinking about, you know, as an additive approach, should that be our priority number one in countries like India. And the answer has been, no, it shouldn't, it, it can't be it can't be ignored. And there are some good work that's being done by variety of research groups across India looking at dietary feed additives. The, the additives that I've seen have been more plant extracts, you know, tannins as solutions that are gonna be cheap and affordable in terms of their application at the small holder level. I think there's possibility. I mean, those farmers, from what I could see, and granted, I'm, I'm hopefully will become an expert. I'm just, just learning. But from my, my observations is that farmers can obtain pelleted feed at the collection centers. And so maybe there's an opportunity there to integrate sort of additives in that particular pellet to ensure consistent delivery.
Dr. Joe McFadden (38:12):
But the efficacy for those products, those additives that they're looking at are quite low. I would argue that probably in that five to 10% range haven't closely evaluated any of the science, but I can't imagine this could be more than five or 10% efficacy in terms of methane reduction. And so that's why we made a conscious decision here to partner with edf to focus on efficiency. Cause I think our, our biggest gains can be made there most rapidly, and we focus more on feed additives in the developed countries like the US as, and we do that together. Hopefully we'll be in a better place 10 years from now.
Dr. Ken Sanderson (38:50):
So the, so that quickly leads me and Perry, this might be for you because the regulatory environment for approving these additives globally seems to be highly variable. And the US perhaps may be being one of the more restricted marketplaces for approval and the oversight from the fda. Can you comment on where that's gonna take us and what that looks like?
Dr. Peri Rosenstein (39:22):
Absolutely. Yeah, I think that's a great point. We really need space for innovation in this field and a faster pathway to market. So it is important to identify an expedited regulatory process going forward. Currently, all products with environmental claims, including enteric methane inhibition, are reviewed under the N A D A or new animal drug application process. And it certainly is a long and resource intensive process whi, which is important, it's an essential pathway. But we, we need a faster pathway to market. This is an urgent crisis and a need. That being said, any pathway still has to maintain safeguards for animal health, human health, and the environment generally. C V M has demonstrated their commitment to reevaluating the current regulatory pathway for these products. So we are eager to hear what comes out of that work that those efforts have been seen in other regions. Canada has a new approach to, to these products. And Europe has a, a different approach, but you're right, it does look different by region. And currently the process in the US is quite long. And so we're, we're hopeful for what comes out of those, those efforts.
Dr. Ken Sanderson (40:39):
So as you think about the two broad categories, and then I'll leave this subject alone, but the category of inhibitors of the meth pathogenesis pathway, so three knob maybe being the most understood example versus room and modifiers. So all the other things Joe mentioned a few minutes ago. Will there be a different regulatory environment for those different categories? Is that how you see that unfolding?
Dr. Peri Rosenstein (41:12):
There are several different approaches that CVM could take to re-envisioning the regulatory process for these products. They could open up an existing pathway like the food additive petition process. They could create a, a new category like what you're describing, a gut modifier category or zoo technical category more consistent with other regions, or they could remain in the N A D A pathway, but perhaps limit the effectiveness requirements in order to get approval. So there are several different ways that they could navigate the system in order to provide an expedited pathway.
Dr. Ken Sanderson (41:49):
Great. Thank you Scott.
Scott Sorrell (41:52):
So Joe, you've got a hard stop here in about three minutes. And I'm out of bourbons, so I think with that we'll call our call you as well,
Speaker 5 (42:22):
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Scott Sorrell (42:45):
So Ken, let's start with you.
Dr. Ken Sanderson (42:48):
No, I think what's come to light in, you know is the imperative nature of this conversation, it's changed a lot in the last three to four years, and it's accelerating. And I think for where I'm sitting, looking at the industry and the need to make some of these adjustments, it, it's never been higher. So the chances of, of us making some real inroad seems to be also accelerating as we put focus here. So from that standpoint, I, I think I, my hat's off to Cornell for the effort Joe's leading and trying to establish some technology standards that we'll have to look for.
Scott Sorrell (43:36):
Yeah, well said. Ken. Perry, what do you have for us?
Dr. Peri Rosenstein (43:40):
Yes, I completely agree about the urgency of the work. And the lot of this conversation touched on how it, it can take many different forms. Certainly optimizing productivity is a major area. It increases food security and improves livelihoods while having that co-benefit of reducing methane emission intensity. So I think that's really important in a lot of regions when we're talking about the US and other similar systems. Certainly innovation in this space and the ability to understand the systems and, and measurement are really integral to, to making progress.
Scott Sorrell (44:11):
Yeah. Excellent. Joe, we'll give you the final word. Okay.
Dr. Joe McFadden (44:14):
Well, I have two comments. One comment was something I didn't talk too much about, but we sort of overly generalize percent efficacy. We always like to say X percent, but we have to understand that it's likely highly influential by diet by stage of development, you know, breed the animal. We have to, we don't really understand enough. And so we have to be careful not to overgeneralize, and we have to be very transparent about what works and what doesn't. What's the consumer? That's number two. And number three, I have a call for all people in the sort of the feed manufacturing, feed additive sort of business. Let's start to think about developing countries. The Global Research Alliance did a survey. Nearly all of them. It was like 80% focus their efforts on the developed world and not the developing world, and the efficiency gaps only gonna get worse. And so we have to encourage companies to sort of think a little bit, Hey, how can I, you know, expand my market to those countries? And, and, and hopefully I see that opportunity emerge. Thank you. This has been a blast as always.
Scott Sorrell (45:20):
Yeah, no, it has been a blast. I, I've had a, a lot of fun. And so I wanna thank you Joe and Perry for joining us. You guys have been great guest. I also want to thank you for, you know, the contributions you have made and, and will make toward this very timely effort. Ken, you're always a great co-host. Thank you for joining me here this evening. And to our loyal listeners, I want to thank you for coming along for 65 episodes so far and sticking with us for even more to come. We hope you had fun tonight. We hope you learn something and we hope to see you next time here at The Real Science Exchange where it's always happy hour and you're always among friends.
Speaker 5 (45:56):
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