This episode was recorded at the 2025 Florida Ruminant Nutrition Symposium. Panelists Dr. John Goeser or Rock River Laboratory, Inc.; Dr. Bob Kozlowski, PAS of Dairy NExT, LLC and Dr. Tom Overton of Cornell University introduce themselves and give an overview of their backgrounds. (0:10)
This episode was recorded at the 2025 Florida Ruminant Nutrition Symposium. Panelists Dr. John Goeser or Rock River Laboratory, Inc.; Dr. Bob Kozlowski, PAS of Dairy NExT, LLC and Dr. Tom Overton of Cornell University introduce themselves and give an overview of their backgrounds. (0:10)
Dr. Goeser begins with three different ways to define forage quality: energetic potential, particle size as an interaction factor, and anti-nutritional components. He asks Dr. Kozlowski if these are the hot topics for his consulting clients. (6:53)
When evaluating the energy potential in feed, Dr. Goeser states there’s nothing new as far as measuring the nutrient content of feeds, but capturing the nutrient digestion potential in fiber, starch, and fatty acids is an area where we could stand to make sizable strides. We’ve been studying fiber and starch digestion for more than 50 years, and they're still really hard to measure because nutrient digestion potential is not linear. In the laboratory, ruminal fiber digestion is measured at many different time points to create curves, but if we want to get a good handle on the energy potential in feeds, we need to take a total digestible nutrients approach. (9:31)
Dr. Goeser feels there are more similarities between laboratories in quantifying fiber digestion potential, but there is little agreement among labs for starch digestion. Research shows that seven hour starch digestion is dramatically affected by laboratory technique and starch digestion curves also vary widely among labs. Dr. Overton commends the lab for diligently working to understand these dynamics. (14:31)
From a fiber standpoint, Dr. Kozlowsk states that uNDF has probably been one of the most significant improvements in the tools he has to work with. He gives an example of cows on a 45% forage diet in the Southeast and cows on a 60% forage diet in the Northeast, both with similar uNDF concentrations. Those two groups of cows perform very similarly in terms of volume, fat and protein. (18:43)
Dr. Overton asks both guests for their take on feed hygiene. Dr. Goeser feels that there is at least 10 times more to learn about feed hygiene compared to fiber and starch digestibility. Merging veterinary diagnostics with commercial nutrition laboratory work shows promise for solving undesirable mold, yeast, mycotoxin and bacteria issues in feeds. In case studies, he states there is never just one issue at play; there are two or three that may have negative associative effects with one another. Dr. Kozlowski has been seeing varietal-dependent corn silage DON toxin levels in the last few years. Dairies are now looking at all aspects of the agronomy program in addition to all the other assessments of NDF digestibility and starch. (20:33)
Dr. Goeser goes on to describe some work on large dairies where they’re finding hidden nutrient variation and starch and protein flux that happens within a 1-2 week period that we aren’t able to capture with our current sampling techniques. For dairies feeding 2,000-15,000 cows, a diet formulation is on point today, but within that 1-2 week period at the volume of feed they’re going through, the diet is now out of spec. However, it’s not so out of line that the cows are giving feedback in terms of components or deviation in production or intake. (30:08)
On the cow side, new technologies like SCR are allowing insights into rumination dynamics, which can be applied to feed formulation. Some silage choppers now have NIR units measuring silage quality during harvest. The panelists discuss what other technologies might be on the horizon, including on-farm NIR units on front-end loaders or mixer trucks. Dr. Goeser mentions some of the challenges with these technologies, including feed moisture levels interfering with equipment and lack of trust in technologies. (34:21)
The panelists close out the episode with their take-home messages. (42:03)
Please subscribe and share with your industry friends to invite more people to join us at the Real Science Exchange virtual pub table.
If you want one of our Real Science Exchange t-shirts, screenshot your rating, review, or subscription, and email a picture to anh.marketing@balchem.com. Include your size and mailing address, and we’ll mail you a shirt.
Scott Sorrell (00:10):
Good evening everyone, and welcome to the Real Science Exchange, the pubcast where leading scientists and industry professionals meet over a few drinks to discuss the latest ideas and trends in animal nutrition. Hi, I'm Scott Sorrell. I'm gonna be your host here tonight, and my co-host once again is Dr. Tom Overton from Cornell. Hello, Tom
Dr. Tom Overton (00:29):
Scott, thanks for having me.
Scott Sorrell (00:30):
Welcome back. Hey, just for the folks that may not have heard maybe the previous podcast, give us a little bit of background on yourself. Yeah,
Dr. Tom Overton (00:37):
So I've been at Cornell about 27 years research extension teaching in the area, dairy, cattle, nutrition. I chair the department and work with, get to work with our industry professionals as well, such as Bob Kozlowski.
Scott Sorrell (00:49):
Yeah, yeah. Speaking of Bob Kozlowski, Bob's gonna be providing color on this podcast. He found out that he was gonna be participating just earlier this morning, and he was like, well, what do, what do I need to know? And I said, listen, Bob, all you have to do is be witty, charming, and handsome. And so he's all three. So, Bob Kozlowski. Now, I've known Bob. I first met Bob many years ago before you were a famous consulting and nutritionist. You were still with Agway and I remember having breakfast back when you were considering going out on your own. So it's and, and haven't connected for a while. So I'm, I'm appreciating this and, and, and great to connect again, so Oh, great to be here. Yeah. Bob, tell us just a little bit about yourself.
Dr. Bob Kozlowski (01:33):
I've been in the nutrition area working in the field since the early nineties. As Scott said started out working with Agway worked for Sure Gain. And then in 2002, February 9th, 2002 decided that with the encouragement from several large producers I was working with, that I was going to take the plunge and go out and basically feed cows independently. And began a company called Advanced Dairy Services. Ran with that for well, up until about a year ago had several different consultants come alongside me. Ended up with about well, there's four of us working together and decided to merge our company with three other consultant groups about a year ago. And our new company is Dairy Next. So the, the, the four, the four parent companies, advanced dairy services, cows come first wrapped dairy nutrition and bought nutrition services, got together and spent about a year just discussing what the idea was and, and what we were gonna try to accomplish. Kinda had similar visions where the industry was going. As the industry continues to consolidate looked at the fact that consultant groups are probably going to consolidate been been a very interesting ride. Just kinda learning different personalities, different styles of doing business. But one of the things we wanted to do is identify how we can stay relevant in a rapidly changing industry. Yeah. So that was really our primary goal.
Scott Sorrell (03:26):
Excellent. Well, it's good to see you again, Bob. And thanks for joining us here tonight. Our featured speakers Dr. John Gazer from Rock River Labs. John will be given a presentation later today here at the Florida Ruminant Nutrition Conference. So John, what I'd like to ask you to do is, first, how did you come about getting on the agenda today? And then the second question's gonna be kind of just give us a background on, on what you're gonna be talking about.
Dr. John Goese (03:55):
Thanks, Scott. Appreciate sitting, sitting through
Scott Sorrell (03:58):
The, and by the way, this is not your first trip to the pub. This is actually the second,
Dr. John Goese (04:02):
It's not, you know, we had had the humble opportunity to honor Dr. Hutchins Yeah. A, a while back. So that, that, that was a lot of fun discussing the, the impact that Mike Mike's had. I, I think on, on all of us in the industry. Yeah,
Scott Sorrell (04:14):
Absolutely.
Dr. John Goese (04:15):
As far as how I'm sitting at the table with my esteemed colleagues here today, the steering committee reached out to me, it was a few months ago, probably at this point, I lose track of time. But in invited me to, to come down and, and speak to what's new in the laboratory from a, a forge in feed analysis standpoint. I asked them if we could expand the, the topic a bit more broadly, and con consider some of the different, different components that could be used to define forage in feed quality, and then subsequently how it may influence diet formulation for chasing this efficiency. And like Bob mentioned before, this rapidly changing and evolving dairy, dairy industry. We, we seem to be chasing less and less volume in production, and we were seeking efficiencies in terms of feed conversion efficiency, or lessening our, our carbon footprint. And, and being a little bit, probably more forward thinking in, in that regard. So we'll get into those areas trying to qualify maybe few different subject areas. But I, I tend to take a pretty freestyle approach now on the program, and the steering committee was open to that. So, we'll, we'll see where we go. Good.
Scott Sorrell (05:25):
Good. Good. Awesome. So maybe wanna just start off take one of the, the big topics within your talk today and just kind of flesh it out. What are some of the things that one you're gonna talk about one are, and what are some of the key takeaways that you want the audience to know? Hmm.
Balchem (05:51):
New research is changing everything we thought we knew about choline impact on the cow and her calf and top scientists have a lot to say about it. They're presenting new research that supports choline as a required nutrient to optimize milk production choline as a required nutrient to support a healthy transition choline as a required nutrient to improve calf health and growth, and choline as a required nutrient to increase colostrum quantity. This new research is solidifying choline role as a required nutrient for essentially every cow, regardless of health status, milk production level, or body condition score. Learn more about the science that is changing the game and the choline source that is making it happen. ReaShure Precision Release Choline from Balchem, visit balchem.com/scientistssay to learn more.
Dr. John Goese (06:53):
Well, can I, can I flip it around and pose a question to my Absolutely. My colleague here, Bob? So, Bob, there's a few different ways that we can define forage quality. One would be in the energetic potential Dr Vs. And, and others on the program have talked about particle size as, as, as an interacting factor within diets. And then there are can be anti nutritional components. That is an area I think that we might of corresponded a bit in the past. Just mold, yeast, bacterial contaminants, things along those lines. So if we have those three different silos as components of feed quality, which one really jumps out to you as, as a hot topic, as of latent one that's driving your client's interests.
Dr. Bob Kozlowski (07:30):
Yeah, I, I think in the whole area of, of NDF digestibility and and, and we heard a little bit this morning about particle length mm-hmm
Dr. Bob Kozlowski (08:28):
As we know, you know, you mentioned the environmental part of it, you know, and, and we're forced with looking at the sustainability of our business in, in, in what we're doing from a, from a global perspective. I, I also am very interested in looking at the efficiency part, but that being said, we, we know that if we have more digestible forages, we can capture a little bit of both. So you know, some of the work, like with Dr. Overton's done in his lab with fresh cow management and trying to get more nutrients into a cow and early lactation through digestibility, but then also looking at what are the impacts of, of slowing things down at times and keeping the, the animal healthy. So that, that's kind of the, the area that we've been just really asking a lot of questions and doing a lot of work in. And, and I, I guess I would just end with probably one of the biggest things I see in the field right now is, you know, where should chop length be on these forages mm-hmm
Dr. John Goese (09:31):
Well, well said. So Scott, coming back to your question on one of the years that we can get into and flesh out a little bit more, and today in our discussion this evening, is the energy potential in feed. And so, as, as I, as I look at the energy potential in feed measuring nutrient content, there's not anything new there. We, we, we, we are really good at, at measuring starch and fiber and, and we're flushing out amino acids and fatty acids in feed, but those, those are pools of nutrients that have potential. But then unlocking that, that energy and that potential is a function of, of particle size, like, like Bob was talking about. And that'll be a separate, maybe category that, that we'll get into in, in my session. But the, the nutrient digestion potential in fiber in particular, and I would bring starch and even fatty acids in as well, that that's an area we stand to make sizable strides.
Dr. John Goese (10:24):
Yet we, we've been researching fiber digestion potential in dairy cattle. I mean, back to my PhD, which was 2008 at this point and I, I have referenced Dr. Van Seus and, and my advisor David Combs. We, we've got 50 plus years of maybe 60, 70 years of studying. And Tom can maybe help me out in my, my history here as far as going, going back and tracing the lineage of the detergent fiber system, but just exploring and evaluating fiber digestion potential. And if we, if we separate, and I don't know that we can, the fiber particle size from the fibers potential from a digestion standpoint, but in the laboratory, we grind samples to Smither Marines. And we look at then that potential in that feed and isolation of particle size or pot, potentially other contaminants, other factors that may disrupt room metabolism, such as what Dr. Vs was talking about in, on, on his session in, in the, the program with mold and yeast, for example, disrupting room metabolism. So then fiber digestion and starch put put digestibility are
Dr. Bob Kozlowski (11:26):
Really
Dr. John Goese (11:27):
Hard to measure. We've been studying it for 50 plus years, and, and they're still really hard to measure because the nutrient digestion potential is, is not linear. It, think about it like a Nike swoosh. That's something I think that a lot of, a lot of people understand. It's just in, if you flip a Nike swoosh upside down, and I'll, I'll leave my Nike SB dunks down on my feet and not, not expose you all to my stinky feet. But you know, that Nike swoosh, it's, it's just got this curve linear flow to it, and that that's how the, these nutrients are degraded in the rumen or, or in the, the digestive tract in the case of starch rumen and, and post criminal, and figuring out the potential in the many different diets in the many different intakes, like Bob mentioned before, in intake levels, it proves to be difficult.
Dr. John Goese (12:14):
So what we'll do with the laboratory is we measure fiber digestion at, at many different time points of, of room digestion. So 12 hours, for example, twenty four, thirty, forty eight, seventy two, a hundred twenty hours. And then we're set, we're able to, to draw some curves but we, we have more work yet to do in, in understanding just how the, how the digestion over time is really happening and nailing that down, and then being more accurate with fiber digestion assessment, and then summing that up to this total digestible nutrient concept that I've been banging on. So fiber digestion is really important, but if I want to get a, a better handle on the energy potential in feeds, I'm looking at total digestible nutrients, which is the sum of all of the nutrients, including starch and fatty acids and, and fiber, and then matching it up, matching each nutrient up to some digestion coefficient that we estimate and some some conditions. So,
Dr. Bob Kozlowski (13:08):
So I'm, I'm wondering, could we, could we add a couple more time points, you know, just to kinda
Dr. John Goese (13:13):
Dr. Bob Kozlowski (13:25):
And, and I say a little tongue in cheek because we have so many numbers to look at anymore. And, you know, just, just last night I, we were interacting with Dave Weber and he was talking about some things out in Kansas, and, and the way he's looking at fiber numbers, it's different than the way I'm looking at fiber numbers. And, but you know, I think what's really important is once you kind of find your spot, I think what you were kinda getting at is we have so much more to know to learn, but it's really, so much comes down to the art of feeding cows mm-hmm
Dr. John Goese (14:31):
Part? Yeah. And, and I'll, I'll get into that a little bit as well. So there's gonna be a couple carrots or Easter eggs in, in, in my talk. Right. So pay attention and see if you can find them, because I, I look at this, the awesome program as a conduit for me to bring some insights forth, either on, on some projects that we're doing in, in in the laboratory or some relationships that I've known about for, for quite some time. But just I, I haven't allocated the time to authoring a, a paper for, and submitting for, for peer review and this concept of starch digestibility. So from a fiber standpoint, there's, I would say a little bit more similarities between laboratories in quantifying fiber digestion potential. And yeah, the, the reports are confusing 'cause we've got so many different room digestion time points that we're looking at, and we can consider that information.
Dr. John Goese (15:21):
But from a starch digestion standpoint there's not agreement at all between the commercial laboratory. So we get very different outcomes corresponding to say, rocker versus Dairy Lander, Cumberland Valley Analytic, which are, are our other main players in, in the space. And the, the both, the average and then the distribution of the results are dramatically different corresponding to the laboratory. So that makes it very difficult for, for Tom, for example. And, and from A-C-N-C-P-S and modeling standpoint, where is our bedrock? Where, where are we starting from, or what kind of numbers are existing out there? And so I I would, I've got great confidence in the approach that Rock River Laboratory has been utilizing. And this isn't necessarily an advertisement for the, for the, for the group, but research back. And we, you know, coming back to one of these Easter eggs, I, we, we've got some data corresponding to a pretty sizable investment project we've taken on in the last few months to investigate the impact of laboratory technique on resulting starch digestibility, not at just seven hours.
Dr. John Goese (16:19):
But, you know, you just said, we, we love time points. So we've got a whole bunch of time points so we can look at some of the curves and what, what you know, just offered a preview is there's, there's a difference at seven hours. So if we dunk a feed in the, in the rumen of a dairy cow for seven hours, and then we pull it out and we measure nutrient disappearance, that gives us kind of like a snapshot. Like if you'd go to a movie and you'd watch one or two scenes in the movie, all right, you got kind of an idea of what happened in the one, one or two scenes, but what was, you know, what was your movie rating for the whole picture? You need some more insight. So we've got some early digestion time points, some late digestion time points so that we can look at curves.
Dr. John Goese (16:53):
So seven hours is dramatically affected by laboratory technique, and the curves are also dramatically different. And why that curve? You know, I keep banging on this curve concept one, one of the inputs for C-N-C-P-S modeling is a digestion rate, which is a numerical value that corresponds to sort of the shape of that curve. So it looks like we have dramatically different shapes to the curve, and then our resulting KD estimates starch kds would be different with lab technique as well. Sure. So that it, it, it's hopefully bringing some insights that we can make use of, so that we can get better than where we are at today and, and empower Tom and your yourself with, with some better, better insights to drive your decision making. Because I, we've got a lot to learn on the starch front, and we know it moves the needle with dairy performance and efficiency. So I want, we have to do better there.
Dr. Tom Overton (17:45):
Well, I think too, you know, again, we know, I, I'm glad you know, you guys are working on that diligently, right? Because it's clear there's been a hole in terms of, you know, field level nutrition and things like that relative to the ability to translate that information. You know, we know that starch and degradability and silages and high moisture corn is dynamic right. Over time. And so, you know, having better ways to get at that is, is great. And hopefully we get to the point where, you know, where we starch, where we kind of have been with NDF digestibility. 'cause I remember, you know, Bob, when that kind of came on the scene, yes, it was kind of before your PhD. It was kind of coming out, starting to come out. But, you know, I think that was a game changer for having really good fiber digestibility numbers, whether it's N-D-F-U-N-D-F, things like that at different time points. And you know, especially in New York where we consider our forage quality to be a, you know, competitive edge a lot of times. But we also have lots of fields where, you know, we've got some alfalfa, we got some grass, we got some mixtures. And I'm just curious from your perspective, how has that, you know, how has having that information really helped you dial in on forage quality with your
Dr. Bob Kozlowski (18:43):
Herds? Yeah, it's probably, for me, it's probably been one of the most significant improvements in, in the tools we have to work with just the, the UNDF piece. And, and what's interesting is you know, so I've, so I've done some work over the years in the southeast us looking at a totally different forage base than the Northeast. And at the end of the day this may surprise you guys that the cows in the Southeast actually act just like the cows in the Northeast, right?
Dr. Bob Kozlowski (19:33):
But you know, I could have a, a a 45% forage diet in the Southeast at the same level of UNDF is a 60% forage diet in the, in the Northeast. And cows performing very similarly in you know, not only volume, but fat and fat and protein. So it's been a game changer for me just on the fiber front. And I remember early on, you know, kind of early in my career guys talking about, you know, fiber, we gotta figure this fiber piece out. You know, you had the likes of Van Seuss and, and you know, and you know, some of the other guys at Cornell had done the work. And it just when we start paring this down into these different numbers that we can actually grab hold of, it's been very, very good to help predict intake and help us decide what we need to do on the carbohydrate side, whether it be starch or sugar, and so on and so forth. So
Scott Sorrell (20:28):
I'm gonna let you guys carry the ball on this one.
Dr. Tom Overton (20:33):
So, aside from so comments, maybe you know, John, and, and maybe Bob also relative to, you know, I keep hearing the, the concept talk discussion of feed hygiene coming up all the time, right? So whether it's relates to agronomic factors, right? Whether it relates to mold, yeast, toxins, other things like that. I mean, give us your, you know, John, what do you see out there from a, from a forage analytical standpoint, Bob, what do you see from a herd level standpoint, you know, and, and how do you, how do you deal with these things? Maybe John, start first.
Dr. John Goese (21:03):
Yeah. Thanks. Thanks for teeing that up. I've gotten into this area through field experience. I, I didn't, I'll be careful of throwing my University of Wisconsin under, under the bus. 'cause I'm, I'm a proud badger through and through with a few degrees and still serving an adjunct professor capacity with the department. So I, I, I'm proud of my, my badger heritage. But I didn't, I didn't get any training in this through my undergraduate and my graduate studies. As I was studying both agronomy and plant breeding as well as animal science and nutrition, and the it coming outta graduate school, did a few years of nutrition work. I had had the opportunity to work alongside my, my late dad, which was awesome because speaking about, just figuring out how to make things work, Bob, like you said, the art of nutrition in, in management.
Dr. John Goese (21:51):
I remember vividly and I'll never forget a, a dairy I was working with and, and doing nutrition for it. Dutch immigrant, the guy was awesome. To this day. He, he still is the owner of a thousand cow dairy. He, he feeds the cows himself. And through summer, he'll feed 'em four times a day. And I, I give you this background to, to lay out how much he cares about his herd, his family. And we would run into some feed and, and coming around the end of a bunker or feeding some suspect silage where we'd tip cows over. And, and these weren't just average cows. These were cows that were consuming a lot of feed. And when we'd look back on their production levels, 150, 200 pounds per cow per day, this is 10 years ago. And it was relating to something in, in the feed that we weren't finding that we, we couldn't assay for necessarily in terms of anti nutritional factors.
Dr. John Goese (22:40):
So that, that spawned an interest in this feed hygiene area for me personally. And then had been, I, I've been invited over the last 10 years to, to give a few invited talks at different destination meetings or on different programs. And, and I've since spent some time in the academic literature collaborating with plant pathologist and Damon Smith and some others just seeking to learn. And I've, I've learned a tremendous amount. And at the same time, I, I, you know, while we can talk fiber and starch, and I'll acknowledge that we've got a lot yet to learn in that area, this feed hygiene space, I think we've got 10 x more to learn because of the disruptive nature of, of contaminants that are present within our feed. And, and it's, it, they're contaminants that we can't see with our eyes. So we, we may see some visibly spoiled feed that would correspond to fungal contamination, fungal growth, such as spoiled yeast or bold.
Dr. John Goese (23:32):
And then we pitch that off with a fork and we think we've got things cleaned up and an infrared camera. It can be a, a really helpful tool to, to help us uncover what we, we aren't seeing with our eyeballs in terms of just, just heat and growth, microbial growth and metabolism that's happening that isn't desirable. And so in, from a feed hygiene standpoint and an assessment that we could do at just a commercial laboratory, perhaps getting into some veterinary diagnostic laboratory work as well, there's kind of a merging of these two worlds. Veterinary science and nutritional science. I, I like to talk about fungal contaminants from mold yeast and mycotoxins. Mycotoxins has certainly been a buzzword and probably the best researched component of the feed hygiene area. But we also need to consider bacterial contamination undesirable or potential pathogenic or bacteria that can grow in certain situations that may correspond to animal stress, whether it be from a nutritional or from a management standpoint.
Dr. John Goese (24:31):
And then the potential negative associative effects between fungal bacterial and maybe challenges that exist in the diet because that, that will inter interact with contaminants present in feed. And so for what we tend to find in, in commercial applications, case studies, there's never just one issue at play. It's always two, sometimes three. And so attacking and addressing the, the, the case, the situation where we've got some digestive upset or our feed conversion efficiency, or maybe our components aren't where they want to be, and we think there might be some feed feed hygiene issues that could be addressed. I like to take a diagnostic approach. It's sort of a TMR hygiene diagnostic approach and look in the, look at those different areas. So it's far beyond mycotoxins and, and getting into some bacteriology, maybe some other other stressors from a management environmental standpoint as well as nutritional stressors. In terms of, like you mentioned before, feeding cows pushups. What, what can we do to drive consistent intakes? All of those areas are, are part of our feed hygiene investigations.
Dr. Bob Kozlowski (25:35):
Yeah. It seems like, you know, guys are doing such a remarkable job in the last five years or so of face management as you, as you mentioned, Dr. Gaer, the, just the way they approach a bunk and, and managing for the visible things. But one thing that we've seen just in the last few years has been varietal dependent corn corn silage don toxin levels. And I think a lot of this is coming in with some of these leaf diseases that we've been seeing. You know, we we're familiar with BMRs being a little bit more a susceptible, susceptible to blight. And and, you know, we're learning more about what the effect even on NDF digestibility mm-hmm
Dr. Bob Kozlowski (26:30):
Of course, Don is just one of, you know, maybe thousands, right? Yep. That we don't know about. It's a marker. It's a pretty good one. It's one we sometimes don't know what to do about. But it's, it's helped us understand that we have to be looking at all aspects of the agronomy program. And what that's led to is people doing more fungicide mm-hmm
Dr. John Goese (27:11):
I love hearing that you, you talk about dairies innovating and really pushing the envelope forward. This is where, where we need to be expanding our, expanding our definition of quality to, to nutrient potential and, and yield and digestibility potential. But then bringing in some plant health considerations. Because as a Damon Smith and, and others are out promoting the impact that seed genetics can have on, on disease resistance I love hearing that. That's great.
Dr. Tom Overton (27:39):
Yeah. Interesting. Right. And of course you talk about Don Bob, and, you know, that's the one, if we're gonna have some involvement of toxins in milk fat issues, right? For example, with dairy, that's probably the main one that, that, that is gonna precipitate that. So it's really interesting to hear that.
Dr. Bob Kozlowski (27:50):
Yeah. Yeah. It's very, it's very uncommon to see some of the other, the other ones at least, you know, in the southeast you see the aflatoxin effects of course. And, you know, lot, lot to do with stress and environment in the northeast, sometimes some reason, but it's, Don is the player that is, is always there and lurking. So we've, we've gotten into a very systematic approach of just sampling for that. Mm-Hmm
Dr. Bob Kozlowski (28:41):
And of course, folks like yourself have led that charge in, in presenting what the the negative impacts are. But yeah, if we could just keep checking some boxes and getting closer to getting down to science and but it, it's just always coming back and, you know, we're dealing with people and mm-hmm
Dr. John Goese (29:30):
Consistency cows are creatures of consistency that that will thrive to un unmatched levels and levels that we, we don't even know are possible when we improve the nutrient supply, the consistence in nutrients, and then also alleviate just insults Yeah. Coming in with, whether it's deoxy, vallen all, or Don or, or some of the other contaminants. I mean, there's so much happening that we don't see, but that, that we can manage and just alleviate that, that little bit of, little bit of energy drain that may be associated with that.
Scott Sorrell (30:02):
Any other key areas, John, that we need to cover during the podcast?
Dr. John Goese (30:08):
I'll, I'll stay on this consistency topic, and, and this is an area where I've, I've been working practically a bit more the last few years as teaming up with some forward thinking nutritionist and, and larger maybe future minded dairies in understanding what our nutrient supply actually is coming in our individual feeds. So Bob, you, you queued this up for me when you talked about doing some spot sampling for mycotoxins, and I think that's an awesome approach just to, to get an idea of what might be insulting us, what might be on the horizon. And at the same time fungal growth potential and mycotoxin contamination are, are isolated to hotspots in areas. So it's really tough to, to put a sampling program together to get a, get a, a robust understanding of what the inherent mycotoxin level is in a silage, for example.
Dr. John Goese (30:56):
And it requires quite a bit of testing more so over time to get an idea of what, what's coming in. We, we've applied the same concepts to nutrient profile in, in feeds, and I'll actually cite Kristen Reed formerly of Cornell. She did some work with Jorge Barientos Blanco looking at, and may, I don't know if you were involved in some of that work. There were some nutritionists in the, in the northeast. Yeah, no, I was aware of it, but you're aware of it. Yeah. So we're finding hidden nutrient variation and, and changes in, in, in our, our silages haage and, and even in our purchased feeds that every, even every two week sampling regimen doesn't necessarily uncover, especially for some of our larger dairies that are, are feeding truckloads by the week of different ingredients. And, and we're finding flux as I, as I characterize it in starch and protein, for example, that are happening within a week to two week period of time that we just don't have enough information to, to uncover.
Dr. John Goese (31:54):
So we've been applying a, a bit more aggressive philosophies for some dairies that are seeking to take additional control over their nutrition and feed costs. And that, that's another area that I'm gonna hit on. Just, just to touch, just to introduce the concept and, and show a couple of examples. But one thing I've, I've learned and, and collaboration collaborative work with, with dairies that are feeding 2000 to 15,000 cows and, and just consider the volume of feed they're going through. Bob may formulate a diet and it's on point today corresponding to our, our, our feed sample averages. But within a week to two weeks time, that diet's outta spec and it's not outta spec to a point where the cows are, are giving us some feedback in traditional ways such as components or, or maybe deviations in, in production and intake.
Dr. John Goese (32:39):
I don't know if we have the greatest intake data in a lot of cases, but when we apply the diet to the actual trends in feed analysis, we're finding a quarter pound, half pound, up to a pound of nutrient deviation from targets in protein or starch. And there have been a couple of dairies that have implemented a, a philosophy for managing that. And I, I won't necessarily get into that today, but managing even on a day-to-day basis, and our, our cows are, you know, like Bob talked about before, getting, getting to new levels in feed, conversion efficiency, there's another le level out there that we can go after by not only alleviating insults in terms of feed hygiene, but also I think some subtle insults in terms of missing our targets and nutrient supply and providing a more consistent nutrient supply to cows. And I, I've used the analogy of a, of, of a fuel injection fuel delivery system in an engine, and forgive me for going into my mechanical, kinda geeked them here, but when we transitioned from carbureted engines to fuel injection systems, we got more efficient with, with the miles per gallon or, or power because we were just more precise in our mixing of air and fuel and that, that fuel and, and energy supply relative to our carbureted systems.
Dr. John Goese (33:50):
And we've got awesome nutritionists like Bob that have, have sorted out and figured out how to really make cows perform. There's another layer out there I think that we're gonna go after and achieve with having a better and more confident insights and awareness of, of what the nutrient supply is actually in, in our forages. So that, that's one area I'm, I'm gonna just touch on
Scott Sorrell (34:13):
As well. And so what does that look like? Is that new technology? Are we, are we measuring at the farm? Is, are we, we got monitors in the, in the, in the, yeah.
Dr. John Goese (34:21):
So like SCR we're, we're getting real time information and feedback from a rumination, just from what our cows are doing. It's, it's applying that philosophy to our feed stuff. So from a testing standpoint, it's catch catching and taking a lot more samples of our feed stuffs and getting those analyzed for nutrient profile. And then with that information in hand, then we can really do some digging and some learning. And so I'm, I'm not gonna tell you we have it all figured out. Yeah. 'cause We certainly don't, but I, I believe there will be new technologies, new innovations that, that come to light that help us harness and manage that flux in the nutrient supply that, that hidden variance, it's not random. Yeah.
Dr. Bob Kozlowski (34:55):
Yeah. I see, you know, with the, with the N air systems that have been incorporated in in some of the choppers that we have, you know, the Forage lab through, through John Deere, you know, and now all of a sudden you've got forage chopper operators talking of talking numbers, you know, like, Hey, I noticed the dry matter fluctuation throughout the day. And, you know, we're, we're having those conversations. But one question I had for John is so where are we on some of these NIR units that we've heard about, like whether it be on front end loaders or in mixer wagons? And, you know, we've been hearing about this for a while. Is it, is it just too hard to get or expensive to get that done on the farm?
Dr. John Goese (35:36):
It's a great question because that would be the technology that we could really deploy and, and potentially even collect hundreds of samples a day to, to get excellent volume of data relative to SCR, for example. But yeah, I've, I've been in, involved in a few different collaborative arrangements with different instrument manufacturers, different technology and the potential's there. The problem is application. And, and that's twofold. One is, if you know, Scott, you've got your glasses on, consider if we walk from an air conditioning environment out outside, into a humid environment like we have here in Florida, we got some great weather day, it's gonna steam up, which then impedes Scot's ability to see moisture is an impediment to these instruments in terms of making the, the, or or having the precision and sensitivity for measuring nutrient composition, for example. So at the laboratory, we will dry and grind samples.
Dr. John Goese (36:31):
The, the drying is yes, part prepar preparatory so that we can grind and homogenize the samples, but it also removes the moisture that is an interference with the near infrared model, building and, and application. So that instrument level interference is, is one thing that we're up against. But, but more importantly, even if we can partly account for that, and maybe for example, we could get fiber and starch measurements with, with sensors, I, I've seen fiber protein starch measurement capabilities to the point where I, I think there's some utility, but then the user and and application on farm has been a really big gap. And one that we've struggled, and this is speaking from experience in working with a number of different in instrument manufacturers and technologies, the people using the equipment, that that's a huge gap and one that I don't know that we can, we can overcome. I've seen some really good instruments just not hit the mark because people aren't using them as they've been taught or not using them at all. And then developed a bit of in lack of trust in them. And then they just, what
Dr. Bob Kozlowski (37:36):
Are some example shelf of that? Like what do you see? Well,
Dr. John Goese (37:39):
So there's a, there's a cup, there's a S cup, for example, that, that we've tried it. Yeah. That's an instrument out there. And so that we've tried it and are using it today.
Dr. Bob Kozlowski (37:49):
You're
Dr. John Goese (37:49):
Using it today? No. Are you using it today?
Dr. Bob Kozlowski (37:51):
Oh, no, no. Yeah, we're not, we're not. And you know, we, we had started with, you know, hopes of being able to just really turn over dry matters, and this is on a large dairy, and actually put it out on two dairies, and in both cases just the variability of it mm-hmm
Dr. John Goese (38:12):
You know, so that, that experience right there is a microcosm of the gap that we've failed to, to eclipse in terms of application on farm. I've, I've seen in, in, I've overseen a couple of ex validation studies where there, the instrument manufacturer didn't have any, any say in it whatsoever. And the instruments can perform. I, I know they can perform. I've seen that. But yet the example and the, the, the case study that you just described, I've, I've also experienced that playing out time and time and time again. So what, what
Dr. Bob Kozlowski (38:43):
Would you suspect is the issue there?
Dr. John Goese (38:46):
It, it, it's probably user just in terms of how we are using it technique could, could there be some instrument issues perhaps? But really that user application
Dr. Bob Kozlowski (38:58):
That's, I know there was some confusion over identifying the sample going in because we, we had seen different, you know, levels of whether it be grass or alfalfa or, or of winter forage, you know, and being able to identify that sample to be accurate with how the cup was going to read. I think that was, there were some equations built in there that were very species specific. Right.
Dr. John Goese (39:23):
So without getting into too much detail. Yes. All, all of, all of that.
Dr. Bob Kozlowski (39:27):
Okay. All all of that. I mean, you bring up a great point though. I mean, we got dairies removing, you know, let's say a two, a 2000 cow dairy is probably removing somewhere around 80 ton of corn silage every day. So you think about 80 ton coming off that face. And it, to your point, it's, you know, probably two days later, it's, it
Dr. John Goese (39:46):
Could be something. Well, and walk back to the field with the harvest lab instruments and, and as some of the, the either custom choppers or the dairy owned choppers and the harvest crews out there, and they're seeing the changes not only in moisture, but there's gonna be changes in grain yield. Yeah. Which is our, our grain and over ratio is gonna change. Our starch and fiber levels are gonna change. They see it in a field. And what we've learned with this driver program, it's called, where we're doing anywhere from one or two samples a week up to five or even greater samples a week, all the feed ingredients fed at greater than, you know, two, three pounds of dry matter in the diet. We've seen, and I speak to a 70 to a hundred thousand ton pit or pile of silage, right.
Dr. John Goese (40:24):
We, we tend to think that that's, even if there's 2, 3, 4, 6 choppers harvesting at any one point in time, we think of the feed being kind of mixed and commingled, and then that pile's consistent. It's not the, those field, those field variances that you just spoke to, that the guys are seeing with their harvest lab, those materialize in those show up in that silage pile and, and we're seeing one moistures change more than than we knew. And then starch and fiber in that silage change more than we knew. And then, then also they're not necessarily correlated. Fiber may be changing and, and, or excuse me, moisture might be changing and fiber and starch might be consistent or vice versa, where we have a consistent moisture. And that was always something that I used as an indicator to get an idea of if forage quality was changing, if, you know, our silage moisture went from 65 to 60 or dry matter from 35 to to 40, and all right, well, we probably should do a feed test through the lab too. Now we've seen starch swing 2, 3, 4 points when moisture was consistent. So it's just fascinating what, what is happening within these big piles and bunkers of feed that we just have never, never known about.
Scott Sorrell (41:29):
Bob, you've been great with some questions. Anything else that, that's on your mind that that, that you'd like to, to know to share?
Balchem (41:36):
Tonight's last call question is brought to you by NiaShure Precision Release Niacin. Niacin is a proven vasodilator for heat stress reduction and a powerful anti lipolytic agent for lowering high blood nefa in transition cows protected with Balchem's proprietary encapsulation technology. You can be sure it is being delivered where and when your cows need it, learn more at balchem.com/niashure.
Dr. Bob Kozlowski (42:03):
No, I, I just think, you know, the technology piece in you know, we've got data coming out of our ears and in all these areas and, you know, I've mentioned SCR earlier and being able to manage that I think, I think it's, it can be overwhelming to people just to see how much you know, what our resources are. I think it, it just takes a good strategy, communication with the producer to understand, okay, what are we trying to accomplish here? What are our goals? Our, our goals as nutritionists in the field are to take you know, the, the forages that they give us to maximize production on that dairy at the optimum health with a sensitivity to efficiencies in the environment at the best cost to the producer. And taking all those things together. Easy task. Right. Right.
Dr. Bob Kozlowski (42:52):
Exactly. It it's what gets us out of bed every morning to, to try to figure this out. And you know, and I, I always tell people it's the, it's the goal of the producer too. You know, everybody's goal is to, to maximize profitability. But as we do that, I think it's just a, a very strategic approach of u utilizing the tools that we have to work with. And it's, it's great to see more and more tools and that, that was my, my comment on more time points because in many cases you know, it's, it's so helpful and in the model has been so helpful. I mean, I, I think about balancing diets in my early years using very linear programs. And now, you know, these, the modeling approach has just been like just light years ahead of the way we used to feed cows and, and just how much better we get.
Dr. Bob Kozlowski (43:42):
And, you know, it's always my hope that the the community, the, you know, our, our population understands how much better we are in the last 20 years or 30 years. I mean, we just, we just keep getting dialed in on these efficiencies and in waste. And I, I think early on with phosphorus, you know, when, when we've, we've dropped phosphorus levels by 50% in diets today. You know, what the, the positive impact on the environment has been nitrogen levels and and just how we're dialing in nutrition. So, I mean, with, with great laboratories and being able to provide the information that we need and, and modeling and, and the ongoing research that's done at universities, it's just been, it's been a, it's been a great 30 years for me, and it's, I just just was looking at that here not long ago saying, I really been doing it that long. It just doesn't seem like it's long.
Dr. John Goese (44:36):
I'm flies when you're having fun. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Scott Sorrell (44:37):
So, boy, there's some great final comments. Tom, you want to add anything to that?
Dr. Tom Overton (44:43):
Yeah, you know, I just wanted to, it's been a pleasure to, to do this with you today. So John, I appreciate all you do and the innovation, you and the other Forage Labs, because I think, again, it's more numbers, but at the same time, it helps us dial things into to where we really need to be. And, you know, KA you've been on a great friend, but also on the cutting edge of technical dairy and nutrition for a long time, and appreciate you taking the time to, to come join us today. So add lot to the discussion.
Scott Sorrell (45:05):
Yeah. No, it's been awesome. Yeah. John, any final words you'd like to, to give the audience
Dr. John Goese (45:12):
A lot of upside potential in the dairy industry? Be, be proud to all of our producers and our nutritionists and those that, that support the industry and, and Tom to those that teach the next generation. We've got so much to be proud of. I mean, just the, the optimism that I I see in the industry even, even weathering through some challenging years from an economic standpoint. We've got a lot, lot to be, lot to be proud of. Yeah. So let's, let's keep after it together.
Scott Sorrell (45:36):
Yeah. Thanks for joining us today. Looking forward to seeing your presentation. To our audience, thanks for stopping by. Hope you learned something. Hope you had some fun. Hope to see you next time here. It's real science exchange where it's always happy hour and you're always among friends.
Balchem (45:51):
We'd love to hear your comments or ideas for topics and guests. So please reach out via email@anh.marketing at balchem.com with any suggestions, and we'll work hard to add them to the schedule. Don't forget to leave a five star rating on your way out. You can request your Real Science Exchange t-shirt in just a few easy steps, just like or subscribe to the Real Science Exchange. And send us a screenshot along with your address and t-shirt size to anh.marketing at balchem.com. Balchem's real science lecture series of webinars takes place on the first Tuesday of every month with the top research and nutrition topics that will impact your business. We also include small ruminant, monogastric, and companion animal focused topics throughout the year. Visit balchem.com/realscience to see the upcoming topics and to register for future webinars. You can also access past webinars and search for the topics most important to you.