Dr. Drackley begins with an overview of his presentation at the 2025 Florida Ruminant Nutrition Symposium, focusing on the NASEM requirements for pre-weaned calves. He mentions some differences in energy and protein requirement calculations compared to the NRC system, as well as increased vitamin E recommendations and a more biologically based factorial approach to calculating mineral requirements. (5:59)
Dr. Drackley begins with an overview of his presentation at the 2025 Florida Ruminant Nutrition Symposium, focusing on the NASEM requirements for pre-weaned calves. He mentions some differences in energy and protein requirement calculations compared to the NRC system, as well as increased vitamin E recommendations and a more biologically based factorial approach to calculating mineral requirements. (5:59)
Dr. Overton notes that milk replacements can be formulated differently to account for changes in mineral or vitamin requirements. In herds that feed whole milk, is there any reason to think about supplementing those calves? Dr. Drackley suggests that Mother Nature may have been smarter than us all along, as the composition of whole milk matches very well with the nutrient requirements of calves. (9:43)
Dr. Lundquist asked what the impetus was for the increase in vitamin E requirements. Dr. Drackley refers to a series of studies examining the role of vitamin E in immune function that have shown the previous requirements were too low to achieve optimum health outcomes. Many dairies give a vitamin injection after birth to help boost young calves. (11:45)
The panel discusses improved colostrum feeding efforts and the variation in successful passive immunity that still exists in the industry. (13:51)
Scott asks Dr. Overton what gaps he sees in calf nutrition from his Extension specialist perspective, and he suggests that best management for weaning is still a big topic. Dr. Drackley agrees this is an area that needs some attention. He feels the industry is doing better on the baby calf side by feeding more milk, but then that almost makes weaning more difficult because people are not changing their mindset about how to step calves down from milk or what age to wean calves. (16:39)
For people feeding more milk than the traditional 1.25 lbs of solids, Dr. Drackley recommends extending weaning time to eight instead of six weeks. He also recommends at least one step down in the amount of milk, which could be a week of feeding just once a day. Calf starter formulation and quality are also critical. Research shows that providing a small amount of forage, preferably grass hay or straw, before weaning is beneficial for buffering and rumination. (18:47)
Dr. Overton asks about the research gap in our understanding of transition cow management and how that impacts the calf in utero and after birth. The panel discusses heat stress and season of birth impacts on calf growth and first lactation performance. (26:08)
The panel wraps up with their take-home messages. Discussion includes pelleted versus texturized starters, sugars in a starter to promote rumen development, the value of increasing the quality and quantity of calf nutrition, the thermoneutral zone in baby calves, and outsourcing calf raising. (33:10)
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Scott Sorrell (00:10):
Good evening everyone, and welcome to the Real Science Exchange, the pubcast where leading scientists and industry professionals meet over a few drinks to discuss latest ideas and trends in animal nutrition. Hi, I'm Scott Sorrell, gonna be your host tonight, and I've got my co-host here, Dr. Tom Overton from Cornell. I was just talking to our producer before the recording started that I've got some neat ways that I've met people and I've got two of 'em actually here on, on, on the panel with me today. One is Tom met Tom when we were at the ADSA in Indianapolis, and we hit, we were playing softball and we hit back to back home runs. I'm like, who was that guy? It was Tom Overton. That was my
Dr. Tom Overton (00:49):
That was my last home run too.
Scott Sorrell (00:52):
Oh. So Tom welcome. Thanks. Glad to have Thanks. Bet. Why don't you just kind of give the audience just kind of a brief overview of other than a great home run hitter who is Tom Overton?
Dr. Tom Overton (01:04):
Yeah, so I'm a faculty member at Cornell University. I chair the department. I've been there about 27 years and I've had extension and research teaching and now administration responsibilities there. I was one of Jim's PhD students in the early days, so it's nice to get a chance to sit at the same table again.
Scott Sorrell (01:21):
Yeah. Awesome. And providing color today is gonna be Rick Lundquist. Now I met Rick, I don't know how many years ago it was, but the interesting story there is I met Rick on a cattle drive that was sponsored by, I think back in the day was, was Bioproducts. Yes.
Rick Lundquist (01:38):
Yeah, yeah. We were out in rangeland in Arizona. Roping calves. Yeah,
Scott Sorrell (01:45):
Yeah, those, those calves knew where to go.
Rick Lundquist (01:48):
The horses knew where to go too, because I wasn't steering them.
Scott Sorrell (01:52):
Exactly. You couldn't steer him
Rick Lundquist (02:04):
Well, I'm an independent nutrition management consultant, and this is all I've ever done my whole entire career. I got my PhD at the University of Minnesota and partners with the in nutrition professionals. There's seven of us, and we cover most of the country. We're filming this in Florida today, and this is where most of my cows have always been, although I work in the Midwest too, but this is kind of where I've cut my teeth and still working here. So this is home for me.
Scott Sorrell (02:32):
Excellent. And welcome to the pub. This is your first time here. Tom's been here several times, and our next guest, he's, he's no stranger to the pub. This is three or four. Yeah. And, and most recently Dr. Drake Lee, we featured him on our legacy series. He, he has retired. And so that was published in February, 2025. So we'd go back out there and listen to that if you haven't already. So Jim gave will give a presentation titled Nutrient Requirements of Pre Weaned Calves. And so that is your area of expertise. And wondered if you could just kind of start off, we'll just dive right in, just kind of give us a brief overview of what's gonna be covered in that presentation. Yeah,
Dr. Jim Drackley (03:20):
Well, thanks for having me, Scott. I in the presentation, I'm gonna talk mostly about the new NASA requirements. Can base the, the presentation off that, just kind of walking through the, the different parts of the NASA nutrient requirements of Dairy Cattle series with the chapter pertaining to calves. So we'll hit some of the basics you know, basic things like what is a calf and what's a heifer, you know, starting out with a, a definition based on body weight and talk about energy and protein and, and vitamins and minerals. Just walking through the, the the, the chapter in the NASA publication and try to make some practical points along the way as well. So hopefully it'll, it'll provide some interest.
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Scott Sorrell (05:09):
So we had some conversations yesterday with some beef on dairy folks, and we had some beef people, and we had some dairy people, and we got talking about the nutrient requirements of calves. And kind of the consensus was that at least for these beef calves, we may not know what the requirements are, right? Because when they're on the mama cow, they're, they're, they're being nursed. They, they graze and we've never measured really what the requirements are. And in dairy we don't necessarily give them everything they need to, to, to maximize their growth like they would for beef cattle. And, and so the conversation was around how much do we really know about the calf requirements? And so maybe that's not a bad place to start. How much do you think we do really know about the requirements of a calf?
Dr. Jim Drackley (05:59):
Yeah, I think the, the new publication is, is a, a big step forward. It's actually based on composition, body composition of, of dairy calves. So I think from the dairy calf standpoint, we now have a, a pretty good understanding of what the requirements are and, and how different levels of feeding affect performance for the, the beef on dairy. It is a bit of an unknown. I think you know, the, the tissue requirements for energy and, and protein are not greatly different across the, the, the breeds. So I think that our, our formulas equations and so on from the NASA are, are pretty applicable to the beef on dairy. We have not done any comparative studies. We've done three studies now with, with beef on dairy calves, and they, they grow well on the, the same nutrition as we've given the Holstein calves.
Dr. Jim Drackley (06:59):
We have to go back yet and kind of compare the, the results that we've gotten with the, the NASA predictions. We haven't done that yet, but I think in general, they, they grow pretty well. I think one of the things that's come up in the field, and as well we can see a little bit of it in our own research, is they, the beef on dairy calves seem to be a bit more hearty, which, you know, maybe not unexpected due to the, the heterosis and so on of the, the cross breeding. So I think they might be a little more resistant to some of our, our common child childhood diseases and, and calves. But other than that, I think we can use the requirements from the dairy system as a, a basis anyway to, to move forward with the beef on dairy.
Scott Sorrell (07:44):
You know, I think we had you on back when the ssom was introduced, and you may have talked about calf requirements then, and I, so maybe it wouldn't be a bad place just to kind of a brief overview of what changed in the new NAS o about four years ago from what, what was learned before.
Dr. Jim Drackley (08:01):
Yeah, so the, the energy prediction energy requirement prediction is totally different. Turns out it's not greatly different from a result standpoint, but it's, it's more accurate. The, the NRC system would, would over predict growth particularly on, on the, the milk and starter fed calf relative to what the, the, the, the literature would say or the field results would show. So the energy system is one change. There's been some changes on the protein system. The, the way of, of determining the protein requirements is, is a bit different. But again, the bottom line results are not that far off from the NRC vitamins. A a few changes, an increase in the vitamin E content or, or recommendation and minerals is, is quite a bit different. Worked with Bill Weiss on the, the committee to develop mineral requirement equations that were actually based on a factorial system, kind of like we do for other classes of cattle given what data we have available for calves. So the, the mineral requirements are, are a little more biologically based, I think, and, and some changes there along the way.
Scott Sorrell (09:24):
Tom, I'm gonna kind of toss it to you, but you know, Jim says that we've got a pretty good handle on, on the nutrient requirements of, of, of the, the, the calves from an extensions specialist perspective. How well are those requirements being reflected in the field? Do you have a feel for that?
Dr. Tom Overton (09:43):
Yeah, I, you know, I think, again, you know, it's an area where Jim's work, you know, Mike and Amber, Bob, James, others, you know, the whole calf rearing side has come a long way in the last, you know, 25 years. And, you know, to what extent the, the Nassim changes have been implemented. I'm, I'm not totally sure. Right. But I do you know, this, you triggered one thing in me with your comments, Scott, and, and Jim, you know, obviously if you have, if you've, if you've changed milk replacer, or sorry, if you, if you're using Milk replacer, you can obviously formulate a milk replacer differently to account for changes, maybe in mineral or vitamin requirements, things like that. But what about herds feeding whole milk? Is there any, you know, is there any reason to, to think about supplementing that whole milk in some way, shape or form or, you know, et cetera?
Dr. Jim Drackley (10:29):
Yeah, so it turns out with all of our work that Mother Nature was smarter than us all along
Scott Sorrell (11:26):
Rick, you work with some of the best herds in the country, and, you know, it wasn't too long ago, I think that most people would say that looking back, hindsight's 2020, right? That that calves were kind of neglected over the years. Now what, what's your perspective? Are people doing a pretty good job now with the calves on a nutritional perspective?
Rick Lundquist (11:45):
Well, yeah, they're, they're paying a lot closer attention to calves. I mean, with the price of replacements and everything now it's, we're really, yeah, but it used to be kind of forgotten, but not anymore. It's very, very important, you know, so we're putting a lot more attention into nutrition and management and comfort and that type of thing. Yeah, we see it all the time, you know I was gonna ask you too, along those lines of the whole milk and stuff, I noticed that the nascent requirements for Vitamin E went up pretty substantially, right? What was the impetus for that? And then following Tom's question, how would you supplement that if you're feeding whole milk? 'cause We're asked that quite a bit. Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Jim Drackley (12:32):
So the, the basis for the increase in requirements has been a series of studies over the years that have looked at the role in immune function primarily that have, have shown that the, the previous previous recommendations were, were too low to achieve the optimum of health results. So that's, that's the impetus for that. I think as far as supplementation, you know, a lot of people will, will give an injection of, of, of vitamin injection after birth. That's not a bad way to, to boost the requirements during that critical young calf period. There are some, some supplements that you could give in milk, but again, I'm not sure it's necessary on a routine basis.
Rick Lundquist (13:20):
Yeah, Scott. But getting back to what you were saying about what we're doing here, when I work with some custom heifer razors too, and we, we get them there, say 300 pounds, so, and we can, we can tell the environment they came from when they get there, and it's reflected in, in culling and, you know, just general health and stuff. So it's really important. It's just, it's, it's tough now with the price of raising a replacement or purchasing one, you know, so, boy, we gotta do a good job early on. Yeah.
Scott Sorrell (13:51):
How, well, and it, and I, this question's come to my mind because we've been talking a lot about colostrum lately. How well are we doing with getting colostrum into the calves these days? And then what are we seeing when we, we don't, because I'm hearing there's a shortage of colostrum at times and have any thoughts on that.
Rick Lundquist (14:10):
Yeah, there is a sort shortage of colostrum at certain times of the year, you know of course the better managers are always gonna get sufficient colostrum into their calves, and that, that makes a huge difference, you know? And and there's a competing market for it now too, in the human market. Exactly. So you know, it's, it's kinda like the beef on dairy thing, you know, so we keep the replacements. There's, if forget, you know, you know, sell some bull calves or what do we, you know, there's a lot of competition in this market now, but certainly the better producers are gonna make sure we get plenty of cloth from KIS at the right time, too. So,
Dr. Jim Drackley (14:47):
Yeah, I think that there was a paper published a few years ago now that looked at a consensus recommendation for evaluating Corum and went from the old standard of just kind of yes or no at 10 grams per deciliter of the, of the calf to four different levels of corum adequacy from poor up to excellent. And that the excellent is a lot higher than we've typically thought of with dairy calves, but it's, it's pretty close to what the beef people use. So beef calves have typically gotten a lot more colostrum or the results of their colostrum intake anyway are, are better than what we have in, in dairy calves, or have had in dairy calves. So Mike Steel at, at Guelph is, is really interested in that, doing some good work, looking at, you know, really trying to maximize the amount of colostrum that we get in higher amounts than we've typically fed, trying to boost the IgG level even higher.
Dr. Jim Drackley (15:49):
So that, that's interesting to see what will come out of that work. But it is critical. It, it's, you know, not just for the health standpoint of, of getting the immunoglobulins in, but the, the first nutrition of the calf is provided by the colostrum, and there's a host of other goodies in there too, bioactive factors, hormones, growth factors the fatty acid profile is different in colostrum than it is in whole milk. So there's, you know, there's, there's new things being discovered about it all the time that, that help underpin why it's so critical.
Scott Sorrell (16:26):
Tom is a extension guy again, expert. Do you see any gaps in, in dairy nutrition or calf nutrition right now? Or what kind of questions you getting from your pro?
Dr. Tom Overton (16:39):
Yeah, so I, I still think that weaning is still a big topic, right? How to best wean. I realize that the Jim's talk is more on the pre weaned calf, but you know, the whole issue of weaning continues to be out there. And I think I see more and more folks doing second feedings of colostrum as well, right? So you're seeing that in, in, in, in time. But you know, again, as, as Rick said, there's still inconsistency out there relative to the farm level, and you see that through your heifer, through your heifer growers, right. By, as you said, by the calves that they receive. So, and you know, I guess I'm curious on Rick's side, you know, how much of that do you think is colostrum, or how much do you think is just pre wean nutrition in general? I
Rick Lundquist (17:13):
Think it's prob probably less colostrum and more, more just general pre wean nutrition and post weaning nutrition too, and just, and environmental conditions and that type of thing, you know? So yeah, I'd have a lot of questions about that because, you know, especially I see this in the south, you know, the way we raise calves down here, outside, you know, the stress levels on 'em, and, you know, we can tell, we can certainly tell when it gets to that custom heifer razor, you know, on call rates. And that costs everybody money when that happens. So, gosh, it's really important to stress that, that early life.
Dr. Jim Drackley (17:55):
Tom mentioned the weaning aspect. I've, I've given several talks lately on, on the weaning transition and why it's so difficult and, and how we can help calves get through that. I, I, from my perspective, I think that's a, a big hole in the, in the industry and an area that really, really needs some attention. I, I think we're doing better on the baby calf side, feeding more milk. But then that in some ways, that almost makes weaning more difficult because of people that are not changing their mindset about how to step calves down or what age to wean calves. So there's a lot of questions there that, or, or a lot of emphasis I think that needs to be given around the weaning time. So
Scott Sorrell (18:38):
What, what is best practice today for weaning, and then what are the gaps you think we need to, we need to still understand?
Dr. Jim Drackley (18:47):
So, best practice, I think, for people that are feeding more milk than the traditional pound and a quarter of, of solids, I, I think we need to think about extending that weaning time a little bit. The, the noms survey, latest one now is back in 2014, but that showed that the farms were weaning calves on average between eight and nine weeks of age. So I think the, the producers have probably figured out that this early weaning doesn't, doesn't really work very well. So weaning a little bit older age, say eight weeks instead of six weeks a gradual weaning, so at least one step down in the amount of milk over a like a week of, of feeding just once a day. And then paying attention to the starter, the starter formulation and quality is a, a big issue in a lot of cases. When to introduce hay has been a, a, a, a controversial topic, and I think the, the most of the recent research is showing that, particularly for calves that are fed pelleted starters maybe not housed on any kind of organic bedding, that providing a a small amount of forage before weaning actually is beneficial but not, not pushing calves onto A TMR too soon either. So I, I think there's a lot of things that are, that are needing to be revisited and, and practices changed a bit.
Rick Lundquist (20:23):
Yeah, that's a question I get a lot from my producers. As far as starters, do we, do we put any hay in, mix it in with the starter? Do we just feed it separately? Do we not feed it at all? What kind of hay do you put out? Is it alfalfa hay? Should you put grass hay out? Those are questions that come up a lot,
Dr. Jim Drackley (20:41):
So I, I think that we should probably steer clear of alfalfa because calves really like it and they can't utilize it very well. So I, I would prefer a grass hay or even straw, because calves are not going to eat very much of it. They'll, they'll eat enough to, to do the things that, that we need it to do as far as providing a little structure in the rumen. But you know, they don't eat a lot. So in, in free choice situations, they'll eat about 5% of their total intake as grass, hay, or straw.
Rick Lundquist (21:17):
So you're not really looking for that forage as a digestible fiber. You're using ma mainly for scratch, basically.
Dr. Jim Drackley (21:24):
That's right. And to kind of provide some buffering, get 'em ruminating so that they're, they're producing saliva. So I, I would steer clear of free choice alfalfa, because that will decrease starter intake, and that's really what we need to be pushing for the calves. As far as when to provide it, again, if they're on a pelleted starter, I'd like to see some in there before weaning. If they're on a texturized complete starter, then it's not as, not as critical. But I think even there, if they're, if they're not better on straw, for example, that probably some benefit from providing a little bit of hay free choice as far as how to do it. If you're, if you have it available free choice, a grass hay or a, or straw, I think they'll, they'll get what they want that way and not overconsume. Or you can, if you have chopped straw or chopped grass hay, you can mix some with the starter, but again, about 5% or so of the total, total volume, total weight and that works well too, or just sprinkling some chopped straw down the, the, the fence line on top of the starter is a good way to do it too.
Dr. Jim Drackley (22:57):
Yeah, that, that's a good question. There's, there's still some younger people out there doing calf work Sarah Morrison, for example, at, at the Minor Institute. But it's a, an area that I think is, it's kind of a, a double-edged sword. There's a lot of opportunity there, but the, the downside is there's not much funding and, you know, we, we priced ourselves out of the market pretty routinely just because of our cost to do a calf study. The industry wasn't, wasn't willing to, to pay what our actual expenses were. And it's tough to get USDA funding, for example, in that area, although there, there have been some funded projects over the, the past years. So it is, it's an area that, that has a lot of opportunity, a lot of need, but maybe not a lot of people going into it.
Scott Sorrell (23:53):
Yeah. No opportunities to kind of get checkoff funding or do it even make that kind of stuff available?
Dr. Jim Drackley (23:59):
No, the the problem, yeah, the problem with the checkoff is the way it's written, it can only be used for things that promote utilization, not production of, of milk. So it's, we, we in the dairy industry have kind of a tough situation relative to the other industries the swine checkoff and so on. Even the beef check off. So it's, it's there's no money coming from the dairy farmers to go back into research in that, in any production area.
Scott Sorrell (24:31):
You had asked a question in, in your introduction, what's a calf and what's a heifer? And so let, tell me, tell me the difference. Yeah,
Dr. Jim Drackley (24:40):
So it the, he, the, in the NASA publication, it goes up to about 125 kilos for a Holstein. So you know, 275 pounds somewhere in there, but it's, it's based on a percentage of mature body weight. So at calf becomes a heifer at 18% of mature body weight. And that's, you know, it's, it's a bit arbitrary. Ideally the heifer system and the calf system would come together perfectly in the in the NASA system, but they don't meet up necessarily very well because we, we work to develop a calf system separately from the heifer system. So the, the lines don't necessarily cross at any at a point we think they should, but at any rate, as far as when people should use the heifer model Submodel in the, the NASEM model or just use the calf, it's about that, that 18% of body weight figure mature body weight.
Scott Sorrell (25:45):
Okay. Any other key things that we're missing from your presentation that you're gonna give us later?
Dr. Jim Drackley (25:51):
I, I think we've, we've talked around them quite a bit. I think that's pretty good coverage of it. We'll go through each of the areas, protein, energy, minerals and vitamins. But that, I think we've hit the high points on there.
Scott Sorrell (26:07):
Alright, sounds good.
Dr. Tom Overton (26:08):
So, so Jim, one of the, we were talking about gaps earlier, and of course the other area that you're well recognized for is all your work in the dry and the transition cow. And to what extent do we have a gap between, you know, our understanding of how we manage that dam and then how that calf does after she's born?
Dr. Jim Drackley (26:28):
Yeah, I think that's a huge hole. We don't there's been an increase in studies kind of looking at epigenetic effects and so on, in the, in the cow. One of the best areas is, is Jeff Dahl and, and the others here at Florida that have worked on the, the heat stress effect. 'cause We, we can kind of quantify that now. We know that a, a heat stressed transition cow is gonna have a calf that doesn't perform as well either. But as far as the nutritional influences in that same time period, we, we don't really, don't really know, you know, we've, we've done a little summarizing just looking at calf birth weight as a very crude indicator and there doesn't seem to be a big effect of, of over or underfeeding protein and energy on calf birth weight. But I think if you get into some of the, the more functional things like thermogenesis of the ability of the calf to regulate its body temperature immune function, subsequent growth rate we, we don't really know much about how the, the nutrition and the transition period affects that. So I, I think there's some good work going on now. But we don't know a lot and it's, you know, it's questionable to think how much we're gonna be able to manipulate that just for the calf's sake, if it's different than what we need as far as preparing the dam for the, the lactation. If those would happen to be different for some reason, I'm not sure the calf would win out in that, in that argument.
Dr. Tom Overton (28:02):
Yeah. You know, and as you said, I mean, of course we sit here in Florida and although it's certainly not heat stress out there today, it's a cool, another cool day in Florida for this time of year. But I also find the, the, you know, Jeff Dahl, university of Florida, Jimena Laporta, you know, work very compelling relative to those long term effects on of heat stress and utero, the calf. And you know, I also I also think you, you also did some work though with Illinois data, I think, on season of birth, right? And, and showing some, you know, some, you know, corroborating or reasonably consistent of complimentary effects to what the, the Florida and Wisconsin folks have shown under more control conditions. Yeah.
Dr. Jim Drackley (28:43):
So calves that were born in the summer months don't grow as well. And at least in comparison to winter born calves. And we also looked at summer calving cows, which, you know, in a a two year age at first calving, there should be about the same. But that doesn't always happen on the farm. So the, the calves or cows that, that calve in the summer also don't, don't do as well. So yeah, there's, there's definite seasonal effects there, and I think we can show it across the country, not just here in, in very hot climates.
Rick Lundquist (29:19):
Yeah. Based on some of Jeff Dahl's work, we've spent a lot of money on dry cow coolings now. Boy, it's really had a great effect too. You know, calf birth weights are up 10% just like that, you know, so it really makes a big difference. So
Scott Sorrell (29:36):
You had mentioned calves born in the summer don't grow as well. Have you followed those calves through lactations and subsequent lactations, and how do they perform to winter calves?
Dr. Jim Drackley (29:46):
Yeah, we, we haven't followed 'em out very many lactations. We, the, the numbers get a lot thinner when you go into subsequent lactations, but at least in first lactation performance, they're, they're behind the, the cows that calve in a or the calves that were born in a in winter for example.
Scott Sorrell (30:06):
Is that because they're still catching up or do you have a feel for that? Yeah,
Dr. Jim Drackley (30:10):
It, it may be that, that, one of the interesting things from, from Kelly bro work, the student that's working on that is it appears that when those summer born calves get into the cooler seasons, they grow very well. So there's almost some, I'm not sure if it's true compensatory growth, but they do seem to to perform quite well. So if you look at a weight as a, a, a mid-size heifer, you might not see much difference because there is some compensation. But, but there's definite some effects that persist.
Rick Lundquist (30:45):
Jim, I had a question talking about energy. You mentioned in, in your paper, you know, the, for heat stress, cold stress, the energy requirement goes up, right? Yeah. How do we deal with that? How can we compensate for that? Do we feed more liquid during,
Dr. Jim Drackley (31:04):
It's gonna be tough to get 'em to eat more starter? 'cause One of the natural responses to heat stress is that appetite is decreased. If the, probably the way you can get more nutrients in would be more liquid or adding a, a third feeding per day, for example. So that, that would be the surest way to be able to get more energy into those calves.
Rick Lundquist (31:28):
Would whole milk be preferable to a milk replace her in that circumstance, or does make difference? I'm
Dr. Jim Drackley (31:32):
Not sure. I'm not sure there'd be a big difference between the two. I mean, somebody that's, that's using milk replacer already just feeding more milk replacer should be fine.
Scott Sorrell (31:44):
Alright, well, I think what I'd like to do now is just kind of transition to having you guys provide a couple takeaways for the audience. You know, key things you think they ought to know. And Rick, if you don't mind, let's start with you.
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Rick Lundquist (33:10):
Well, first of all, the importance of early calf nutrition. And, and I think as to Tom's point too, weaning the management around weaning and stuff is, is so important. One thing we didn't really discuss too much was the composition of, of the starter and what you prefer, you know, if it's a pellet or, or a textured starter, whatever we need to get. And also, what, how much should we expect those calves to eat when they are weaned? What can be, what, what level of starter are you comfortable with at weaning? And another question too, as far as probiotics, moss DFMs, is that something that we need to stress too in our calf starters? Is that a
Dr. Jim Drackley (34:00):
Yeah, do you want to, do you want to go into those? Yeah, absolutely. Let's go. So back to your initial questions starter or, or a, excuse me, pellet or texturized. There's not a huge amount of comparative data where, where the, the nutrient profile is the same between the two form physical forms, but the data that are there would suggest that calves generally do a little better with a texturized starter as long as it's a good quality one. That said, the differences are pretty small so that people that are using pellets and, and, you know, the certainly convenience of handling and things like that are, are better for a pellet. The, the composition, you know, again, we're, there's just not a lot of good controlled research that is looked at a number of these things. A lot of stuff has been done by the feed companies and, and kept private. But,
Rick Lundquist (34:56):
But I was gonna mention too, what about molasses? You know, you stress sugar and room development stuff. Is it, is it, are we better off to stress a little more sugar?
Dr. Jim Drackley (35:05):
I think so. We can probably go up to about seven point a half percent molasses in a, a starter. After that we, we tend to actually show calves don't like it as well, but other sources of sugar whey or just dextrose whatever the sources can be, I think can, can be useful because the sugars do ferment and, and produce a lot of propionate and butyrate that, that stimulate room development without running the risk for driving the pH down in the, in the rumen like starch does. So that, that, that's one area. The probiotics area, I think a lot of those products have, have shown some, some benefits. Moss has a, a pretty good set of data behind it. Some of the, the prebiotics again, there's not a lot of research particularly not with enough calves to really show the, the small benefits that are probably happening. But I think that that some, some product like that is useful in a, in a starter.
Dr. Tom Overton (36:18):
Yeah. Jim, I just, you know, again, I think, I think the work that you have done, you and others have done to, you know, get us away from this barely above maintenance level, feeding of calves and, and really demonstrating the value, you know, of providing sufficient nutrition, sufficient growth rates leading toward health outcomes et cetera has been, has been really great. I think too, the, you know, again, we sit here in Florida, Rick, your comments on the, on the cooling of dry cows is, is, or experiences you've had are really good because we're, we push it in in New York as well, you know, even though we're not as in gyms, your, your data from Illinois certainly back, this is not just a, a southeast or southwest issue. This is a, you know, this is something we all need to be thinking about relative to how our animals do.
Dr. Jim Drackley (37:01):
One of the things about calves is the, their thermo neutral zone is pretty narrow and it's you know, like the lower critical temperature is about 60 degrees Fahrenheit. So those calves have to start using extra energy at, at what we would think would be a pretty comfortable day. And, and the upper critical temperature is it's about 25 degrees Celsius, whatever that is. And 80, 79, 80 degrees I think in, in Fahrenheit where they have to start panting or, or other means to dissipate heat. So a lot of the country we face both, both extremes. And here in Florida you face 'em both, you know, in your winter you've got temperatures that are below the lower critical temperature, but then you, you've got god awful heat stress in the summer. So it's there's, it's true in most parts of the country that you deal with, with some of both.
Rick Lundquist (38:00):
What do you say to a a, a dairy producer that's considering shipping their calves off to be, to be raised rather than raising on the farm? Is, is shipping distance, is that a big factor? If, so you go from the southeast to Kansas, is that, is
Dr. Jim Drackley (38:15):
That I'm talking about baby calves. Baby
Rick Lundquist (38:16):
Calves, yeah.
Dr. Jim Drackley (38:17):
Yeah. So the, the shipping is a big stress on them. There's no doubt about that. They, if they're shipped well taken care of, well the, they'll recover, but it, it affects their, like, their basal metabolic rate for about two weeks after shipping takes 'em that long to, to kind of readjust. As far as what to do, I, I think it's largely an economic issue. If they can ship calves away and bring back excellent heifers, then I think it's, it's not a bad option. But as you mentioned, you know, the quality of the growers is variable, so I I I think it's a matter of whether they, they can find a grower that will give them the kind of heifers they want at a, a reasonable economic outcome. It's a tough decision.
Rick Lundquist (39:14):
It's something we're pondering all the time.
Scott Sorrell (39:15):
Jim, any final comments you'd like to leave for the audience?
Dr. Jim Drackley (39:19):
Oh, I'd just kinda like to echo some of your comments earlier, Scott, about you know, pleading for younger scientists to take a look at this area. And, you know, for me it was a bit of, it started as a bit of a side area for, for a couple of reasons that were kind of serendipity rather than than planning. So it, you know, you, you don't have to be a strictly a, a calf researcher. You can have it in your portfolio as as part of your program, but I'd, I'd sure like to see some good research continue when, when us gray hairs are, are, or no hairs are gone.
Scott Sorrell (40:01):
Alright, well we have a lot of students that listen to this podcast, so there's a challenge for 'em. Yeah. Alright, well, Jim, you're a wealth of information and enjoyed the conversation. We're gonna miss you. But I guess we're all all gonna retire someday. I'm getting closer myself, but no, we appreciate you and I appreciate you stopping by and spending some time with us. And yeah, Rick and Tom, it's great to have you guys along. Rick, it's should have had you on here sooner, but I appreciate you agreeing to, to come along with us on this little es escapade today. So it's a
Rick Lundquist (40:38):
Pleasure. I told you I didn't know anything about calf, so I'm glad Jim does. Yeah,
Scott Sorrell (40:43):
Yeah. No, that's why we got Jim and, and to our loyal audience, you know thank you. Thanks for stopping in and, and, and spending some time with us. We hope you learned something. We hope you had some fun and we hope to see you next time here at Real Science Exchange where it's always happy hour and you're always among friends.
Speaker 5 (40:59):
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