Real Science Exchange-Dairy

Surviving HPAI

Episode Notes

Guests: Dr. Carol Cardona, University of Minnesota School of Veterinary Medicine; Dr. Julie Helm,  Clemson Livestock Poultry Health; Myah Walker, Director of Quality and Training at Sparboe Farms;  

Co-host: Tom Powell, Director of Monogastric Business Balchem, Dr. Zack Lowman, Balchem Technical Service

Today’s episode is focused on a hot topic in the poultry industry and that is Highly Pathogenic Avian Influenza (HPAI). The poultry industry has come a long way in how we manage HPAI outbreaks, and we will touch on what we continue to learn and how that will help us moving forward. 

Dr. Cardona starts with some background on HPAI. The outbreak in 2022 has so far affected more than 30 states and 50 million birds. (5:07) 

Dr. Helm explained that wild ducks and geese in North America carry many different strains of a low pathogenic AI. When high pathogenic strains come from Europe and Asia they intermix with the North American strains, which typically mellows the high pathogenic strains. (15:19) 

Myah Walker shared lessons learned from the 2015 outbreak, which includes ensuring biosecurity is tidied up. This can be employee training which is constant because of turnover, communication internally and externally about biosecurity processes and communication with peers to share best practices. (23:48) 

Dr. Cardona addressed free-range birds being infected by wild birds and said that wild birds are attracted to poultry farms either by food or water. By protecting feed and ensuring wild birds don’t come for feed, the outdoor spaces could have the same infection rate as indoor birds. (33:03) 

Myah Walker said in addition to economic impacts, there are mental health impacts of HPAI as well. Depopulating a house takes a mental toll on employees, owners, and growers because they feel a lack of control and sometimes blame themselves. (38:43) 

Dr. Helm wrapped up by saying if you’re in the industry, get to know the state person who will help you with a response and get to know them before an outbreak hits to go over your plans. (50:30) 

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This podcast is sponsored by Balchem Animal Nutrition and Health. This podcast is sponsored by Balchem. All views expressed by the guests are the opinions of those individuals and are not the views of the Balchem, its affiliates or employees.

Episode Transcription

Scott Sorrell (00:11):

Good evening everyone. And welcome to the real science exchange. In the podcast, we're leading scientists and industry professionals. Read over a few drinks to discuss the latest ideas and trends in animal nutrition. Hi, I'm Scott Sorrell. One of your hosts here tonight at real science exchange, HPA AI has dominated poultry conversations for much of the spring in the United States. And today we're gonna discuss how far we've come as an industry in managing these, uh, disease outbreaks and what we continue to learn. That will be important as we look to the future. Um, we have a full house here tonight at the real science exchange, welcoming three guests and two co-hosts to the mix. First let's welcome Dr. Uh, Carol Cardona from the University of Minnesota School of veterinary medicine. Carol, you joined us, uh, recently on the real science lecture series to share the details on this topic. Welcome to the pub and tell us, uh, your beverage of choice when you're relaxing with friends.

Dr. Carol Cardona (01:03):

Oh, thank you. Um, I like a local, a local brew from indeed brewery here in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Uh, I like their lavender sunflower in date, uh, ale.

Scott Sorrell (01:16):

Oh, nice. Sounds tasty. Uh, and you brought a couple of guests with you tonight. Would you mind introducing them?

Dr. Carol Cardona (01:22):

Well, first I'd like to introduce Dr. Julie helm. Uh, she's the state, um, official state agent in, in, uh, South Carolina. And Julie, I'll let you, uh, tell us your favorite, uh, beverage and also, uh, a little bit more about yourself.

Dr. Julie Helm (01:38):

Well, my favorite bread bridge is mountain Dew today. I chocolate milk, but I'm doing it in a local brewery cup. So I think

Scott Sorrell (01:48):

That counts.

Dr. Carol Cardona (01:51):

And our second guest is, uh, Maya Walker. Uh, Maya Walker is gonna be here to offer us a poultry industry perspective. Mya, what have you got in your class?

Myah Walker (02:00):

Um, normally if it was after hours, it would be in this fancy cup that I got today. Um, mezcal, I am into the Medical cocktails these days. So a little smokemoky, little sweet, um, put some orange LACO in there as well. Uh, but today it'll be just water. So I work for, um, spar companies where ALA is based in Minnesota. Um, but we have farms in Minnesota, Iowa, and Colorado.

Scott Sorrell (02:24):

So, Julie, I gotta ask during my research, I saw a picture of you on the internet. Um, uh, and you were the biosecurity queen. So tell us about that. Yeah, I mean, you had a Tiara, you had everything going.

Dr. Julie Helm (02:37):

I am the biosecurity queen. I'm limited to the state of South Carolina. However, I can't go outside of Ralph. Um, yeah, that started as a student, as a veterinary student, I went to several different Turkey companies to learn information and meet people and the way the Turkey veterinarians got on and off their farms by putting on protective gear on and off washing their cars, et cetera. And so I brought that to my workplace and because I was very particular about everybody doing it when they came with me to a poultry farm, actually my admin coined me the biosecurity queen. So I started taking that show on the road. Every time we talked to producers, industry, veterinarians, or whoever I fully dress up in biosecurity gear. And I also have a FA that says biosecurity queen and a Tiara, it's probably the only state-funded Tiara there is in the way , it kind of gets it's being silly, but it's getting the message across something for them to remember.

Scott Sorrell (03:35):

Yeah, very nice. Excellent. I told you before I have two co-hosts with me first, Dr. Uh, uh, Zach Lowman. He's back with us tonight. Zach is in charge of our monogastric technical support team. And, um, Zach what's in your, uh, glass tonight.

Zach Lowman (03:50):

Today. It is just diet Dr. Pepper, nothing too exciting, but typically my go-to is Miller light, especially during the summer.

Scott Sorrell (03:58):

All right. And then the next co-host is, uh, Tom Powell, Tom, you've been around the industry for decades. I might say maybe not so many. I don't know you tell me.

Tom Powell (04:08):

Yeah, what's my go too many decades.

Scott Sorrell (04:11):

And, uh, you're currently the director of monogastric business for Bache. Um, what are you drinking tonight, Tom?

Tom Powell (04:19):

Well, I don't know if you guys can see the glass. I can. Okay. Bacardi, um, is what the glass is, but, uh, my go-to is, is probably Woodford reserve right now. So yeah, I'm a bourbon con OFE as is Scott,

Scott Sorrell (04:35):

So yeah. Yep. I don't know if I'm a con OFE, but I do drink it. Uh, so, uh, in my glass tonight, I, for the occasion, I got wild Turkey. I wanted something avian, so wild Turkey, 1 0 1. So cheers, everybody looking forward to a great podcast.

Tom Powell (04:55):

Scott Sorrell (04:56):

All right. So Carol, can you get us started? Um, can you tell us about the anatomy of 2022, uh, an outbreak of, uh, yeah, go ahead?

Dr. Carol Cardona (05:07):

Well, this is a widespread, um, outbreak of highly pathogenic avian influenza. It, uh, was more widespread than any previous outbreak that we've ever had of high path AI in the United States and potentially of any other foreign animal disease in the history of the United States. So more than 30 states have been affected to date in this particular outbreak, uh, likely, um, those numbers will, you know, those, the, uh, we're not having active outbreaks at, at the moment, uh, in most states. And so those numbers of active cases have declined. And so many fewer states are involved right now. Uh, but yeah, this spring, it was a massive spread, uh, across the entire United States, more than 50 million birds infected.

Scott Sorrell (05:56):

Mm. So when we were first alerted to the fact that we may have a problem,

Dr. Carol Cardona (06:01):

Well, I think back in December of 2021, we saw that, uh, there was a Sian virus, uh, that had made its way to Canada, Sian VI, uh, avian influenza usually respects the boundaries of, um, uh, the continents and, uh, north American viruses are what we normally have in the United States. They circulate as low pathogenicity of influenza viruses. In contrast, the continent has experienced since 1996, an ongoing, uh, set of outbreaks. So sort of continuous outbreaks annually, um, from this goose Guandong clay of H five viruses. It started as an H five N one that first appeared, on the global stage in 1997 in Hong Kong. And through the years it's caused outbreaks, uh, across Asia, different countries in Asia, it's emerged in different forms. And in 2015, it first came to our shores in North America probably likely through Alaska, although we never detected that link. And then, uh, uh, onto the west coast, uh, and this particular virus came in through Eastern Canada, likely through Northern Europe and down into the United States.

Scott Sorrell (07:20):

Hmm. And Maya and Julie, the same thing you guys were alerted back in December of 2021,

Dr. Julie Helm (07:27):

Correct? Yeah, they had been, we had been warned that this virus, because of what was happening in Asia, but especially in Europe, how they had had this virus, that we were, you know, concerned that the wild birds would carry it across. So we were alerted ahead of time and knew that you know, we would have to enhance our biosecurity practices to help reduce it. And when it hit, it hit, did

Myah Walker (07:48):

Hit. Okay. So as far as preparation goes, I think that kind of started back in 2015 we had, our lessons learned from 2015 going through that outbreak scenario. So as soon as we were hearing, um, the whisperings about this coming here in 2022, um, we started having company meetings. We were meeting with industry, other industry, um, colleagues meeting with Dr. Cardona and her team doing different like scenario options, um, doing our internal biosecurity audits. So the biosecurity queen, I was that person for our company going farm to farm, making sure like, is there anything else that we could be looking at that could be a possible risk for us? So, um, there were a lot of balls juggled in the air trying to prepare ahead of time, um, before it hit the United States for us.

Scott Sorrell (08:39):

Mm-hmm did you have any that was close to spar there?

Myah Walker (08:44):

We, yes. this year okay. We, we did have, unfortunately, one site in Colorado that did get, um, infected, uh we're on the tail end of that whole cleaning virus elimination process. So we're hoping to repopulate here soon. Um, as long as all the samples come back negative and the, um, the site can be released, but we did that have that. And then, um, we did have one pull location in a quarantine zone down in Iowa, but they stayed clear and free of AI, which is a blessing.

Scott Sorrell (09:15):

Okay.

Dr. Julie Helm (09:16):

And that's a good point. Every time we have an AI event. And even if it's the mild, low pathogen strain, every time we have that, the industry and the states and U S D, we always learn something new, something different, what we could do. So even though the, like the previous big one, 2015, I mean, we all spent the next year prepping our industry, our states. I don't even remember what happened during that year, but I have a lot of stuff made up , uh, in my computer that I did. But, you know, we had, um, smaller cases in high path AI in 2016, 2017 in 2020 South Carolina had one case. So every year, every time this happens, we learn lessons. What went well, what did not go well, and how to change it. And from this outbreak, we are, it's just amazing. We are still always learning more in changing our response plans and what we do on the ground as well.

Scott Sorrell (10:09):

Hmm. So, mm, Julie, you mentioned low, uh, pathogenic, uh, avian influenza. What's the difference between low and high? How do you define those two?

Dr. Julie Helm (10:17):

So that's defined by, um, U S D a and it's, you know, how much, uh, clinical signs and mortality or death rate occur in the birds.

Scott Sorrell (10:29):

Okay. So

Dr. Julie Helm (10:30):

Culturally with low path, there can be no symptoms, no death at all, or mild respiratory, um, some death rate versus high path AI. The virus is essentially hitting all organs of the bird's body and they are dying

Dr. Carol Cardona (10:46):

And, and Dr. Helm comes from a chicken stage. So she's describing what, um, what happens in chickens, but in Minnesota here, we have a lot of turkeys and so turkeys can die pretty easily with a low pathing influenza virus. So high path is defined as what it does in chickens, and what the virus does in chickens. So it might not do that in other species turkeys or ducks or something

Scott Sorrell (11:11):

Else. Okay. And what, what species do we typically think of? Do we, do we get it even in BR broilers layers? Uh, quail,

Dr. Julie Helm (11:21):

Yes. Yes. What

Scott Sorrell (11:22):

Do we all, all of it. Yeah.

Myah Walker (11:24):

All right.

Dr. Julie Helm (11:25):

So even, you know, even some of the waterfowl, you know, even in this, um, outbreak now, you know, they're getting sick and dying as well. And something off to the side, not affected with broilers, but is Raptors. So Eagles, owls, other partners in this outbreak, uh, vultures, we in South Carolina, mid-may, we had a huge vulture, um, die off. So, it hits a lot of different types of birds.

Myah Walker (11:51):

And that was one of them, the differences with the virus this year, compared to 2015, you were hearing a lot more of, um, the wild bird detections, the Raptors, the backyard Flo are getting hit more heavily, um, than we had seen in, in the 2015 outbreak. Right.

Dr. Julie Helm (12:06):

Right. And the broilers

Myah Walker (12:07):

In the boilers. Yeah.

Dr. Julie Helm (12:08):

Right. Broilers were new compared to 2015. And, um, correct me if I'm wrong. My friends, uh, I get this question a lot what about I call 'em the Tweety birds? So these are the songbird that everybody's feeding out in their front yard. Mm-hmm . And what I've been telling is usually these types of birds are not, uh, affected during a high, right. They don't tend to hang out with the wild ducks. And so I'm telling people, you know, it's okay to feed your little, um, wild birds and out in the front yard. But if you have backyard poultry feeding, 'em on the opposite side of the house of the backyard poultry, cuz that's for different disease reason is why you wanna keep those separated.

Dr. Carol Cardona (12:42):

So we have seen, we have seen a few cases here in Minnesota in the small songbirds. Um, and interestingly in juncos. So juncos, I don't know, they're the little gray birds that kind of hop around on the ground and I've sort of been thinking, well, maybe that's how come they access the virus is probably hanging out on the ground with where the duck poop might be. But I think, um, uh, in the studies that have been done with songbirds, they don't tend to get infected with the viruses being carried by waterfall or poultry. Um, they do, they can be infected if you inoculate them, but when they're in cages together, they aren't. And the reason is that if we think about the way that we think about the world, we think about it in a 2d, kind of a, I walk around my house, whatever, you know, I'm on one level, but birds kind of have much more of a 3d look.

Dr. Carol Cardona (13:33):

So, um, Tweety birds are tending to circulate up, you know, higher up and, and come into as, as Dr. Hama saying, just a very little contact with those, with that poultry, we are recommending just like Dr. Homa saying just, um, we're not, I'm suggesting that you don't feed your, um, small birds when you've got, when you've got small poultry flocks at home as well, or if you're a, a Raptor rehabber or something. But, um, one of the things you'll learn is the more veterinarians you ask, the more different opinions you'll have. I think, I think either position is, is acceptable.

Scott Sorrell (14:14):

You know, we've all become armchair virologists over the last couple of years. If, if you've been listing, a lot of the podcasts that are out there I'm kind of curious, is the virus we have this year a variant of the one we had in 2015. And, and then when we have the low pathogenic, are, are they also variants? Uh, what, what can you tell us about that?

Dr. Carol Cardona (14:37):

So this particular strain, um, is probably a brother or sister of the virus that we had in 2015. So if we think of the granddaddy of this whole line of viruses, um, they emerged first in China in 1996 and are called goose Guandong 96. So it's from a goose in Guandong, uh, province, China, Southern China. So those, viruses since then have evolved and changed and mutated. So those, some descendants cousins, third cousins, fifth cousins, you know, it's hard to say, but, uh, yeah, they're all related .

Dr. Julie Helm (15:19):

And also with our low path, we have normal North American, low path strains in our wild ducks and geese here in us. And so they carry a whole bunch of different strains even than the factory can get, get as well. And so, um, like when those high path strains come across from Europe and Asia, they intermix and they start mixing with our North American strains, which is kind of good cause it kind of mellows them out. So I, I always, when I explain it, I say, it's like human influenza. They're always changing every year. That's why we need to get a new human vaccine every year they're always changing so good or bad. They're always changing. So this one was very what we say, virulent very bad for the birds that came across.

Dr. Carol Cardona (16:02):

One thing I let me correct is what I said just now. Uh, so the virus that we had in 2015, um, this virus in 2022 is not a descendant of that virus. That virus was eradicated from the United States through the pain and suffering of poultry companies like Maya, and she can tell you about it. It's a very difficult process that we go through to eliminate it, but it was gone as demonstrated by lots and lots of surveillance and checking and looking. So that virus was eliminated. And this is a new introduction to something related. The continuing evolution of these viruses is taking place on the U Sian continent, not in North America.

Zach Lowman (16:48):

So going with that, do you think we, uh, are gonna semi eradicate this, uh, version of it or when they migrate again end of the year that will, uh, have it pop back up as they come back down?

Dr. Julie Helm (17:02):

Yes. And yes. so yes, everything. Yeah. Industry and states and U S D are doing right now. And as, uh, Carol said, it's very painful, um, to eradicate birds that are infected with it to stamp it out. Yes, we will get through this particular type of virus, but the threat is always, there is always there with a low path to mutate into the high path. Like what happened in 2020 in my state, yes. More birds can come from Europe and Asia introduced a brand new virus. And I, when I explain this to people, I like, it's easier than we've gone through COVID because you, your layperson understands now different variants, isolation, vaccination, you know, all that, all those terms. We have always had to explain, they get it now with COVID. And so I just say, Hey, this is like, COVID brand new strain.

Dr. Julie Helm (17:50):

The birds are not immune to it. They, get infected and they start spreading it. So yes, the possibility is there. What we don't know is will this happen every year, every spring with a new one coming over, or will it become what we call endemic? Will it stay here permanently and we'll deal with it? We just don't know. But what we have to do is we have to prepare for it and just act like it. And so when I'm talking to whether it's commercial, or even the small flocks, I just say, just assume every wild duck and goose out there has AIAN influenza and then do what you're supposed to do on your farm as if they did to help protect you.

Zach Lowman (18:26):

And along the same lines with that. So we've made a COVID vaccine. We've talked about this. How many more, if we do have more issues with this, how many more, uh, big hits do you think the, uh, us can take before we start looking into vaccination for it?

Dr. Julie Helm (18:43):

I'll let Carol talk about that.

Dr. Carol Cardona (18:48):

So, um, this is a question about trade and that's the major issue that's standing in the way, um, there are some technical issues as well, but primarily this is gonna be about trade. And so the major portion of the poultry industry that does, you know, engages in trade is gonna be the broiler industry. Uh, and so because they're, they would stand to lose the greatest amount of, of, of trading in trading partners in the trade war type of situation. They're the ones who have to, um, decide that we're ready for vaccination. And if you will, they're the ones that have sort of 10 votes and every other industry has one vote.

Zach Lowman (19:33):

Are there any countries that are using a vaccine right now or do they just have 'em develop just in case?

Dr. Carol Cardona (19:39):

Yeah. Uh, so there's a couple of countries or several countries that do vaccinate, um, uh, the critically, um, China vaccinates and, um, also, uh, Egypt vaccinates, um, there are several other countries that, you know, we, we talk about, uh, in terms of having trade barriers in place, and that's gonna be the European union primarily, um, me, oh, sorry, Mexico also vaccinates for high path AI, but a different strain of high path AI. So the key thing is, uh, the Europeans. And so the Europeans are not currently vaccinating, uh, but you know, my understanding is that France and the Netherlands may be getting close. So I think it's sort of a matter of, of, uh, determining how the economics for all of the individual commodities balance out with the pain and suffering for the individual commodities. And then, um, how, how much that those barriers can be lowered by potentially other countries starting first.

Scott Sorrell (20:42):

Hmm. So, so how effective are these vaccines against the various variants, uh, out there and how do we stay ahead of that?

Dr. Carol Cardona (20:51):

Well, they can be very effective. Um, they, you know, the, there's several, of vaccination issues. Um, Maya can tell you that on, on any given day, uh, in her system, she's gonna, I mean, what are the ages of the birds in your system right now? Maya

Myah Walker (21:10):

, um, they vary, so we're not an all-in and all-out, um, for ages on our farm. So our Litchfield location, we have about nine barns on that one site probably close to 1.5 million birds that could be there. Um, and each of those houses is gonna be different ages. So, um, that spans between we move 'em at about 18 weeks of age, and then we might keep them to about 80 ish, um, depending on what, what the market's doing and all the other variables that are happening there. So, yeah, that depends.

Dr. Carol Cardona (21:40):

So for a system like that, if you pull the plug in, you say, we've gotta vaccinate now, you know, would you vaccinate every age group? Would you vaccinate the pus that is coming onto the farm? You know, what kind of surveillance would you do to make sure that they're vaccinated? And they're not also getting infected because once they're vaccinated, they really, don't die. And so the vaccines are very effective at preventing clinical signs, but they can get infected just like the COVID vaccines, right? Mm-hmm, the same thing. It's not a sterilizing immunity.

Scott Sorrell (22:11):

It still can transmit

Dr. Carol Cardona (22:13):

Mm-hmm exactly. And so what we don't wanna do is we don't wanna endanger other farms that are nearby. So 1.5 million infected hens might look like might seem like a big thing. Um, but you know, it could also be, um, uh, it, it, it's likely a very good thing to do. We just have to put in place the surveillance tools and, uh, the understanding of everybody knowing what they're doing. So for example, um, Maya's company would have to take on vaccinating. For example, if we said, well, you have to vaccinate everything in Lichfield. That would be a huge expense and huge time risk constraints. And there would be a decrease in egg production just from the vaccination and handling each of those birds that said, you know, it would also protect them. So we're not quite there yet. There are a lot of things to consider. Um, but, uh, I think we're moving in that direction.

Scott Sorrell (23:16):

Mm-hmm, Maya, I'm curious, were you with spar back in 2015?

Myah Walker (23:22):

I was. Yep. Yep. That quality manager.

Scott Sorrell (23:24):

Did you guys have any issues then?

Myah Walker (23:27):

We did have some challenges then as well. Um, mainly it was just our, I shouldn't say just, um, it was our contract producers, our smaller growers that we work with, um, that were hit and impacted then, um, none of our large facilities had any issues at that time. Mm-hmm

Scott Sorrell (23:44):

Can you talk a little bit about the key learnings that maybe you've employed this last time?

Myah Walker (23:48):

Yeah. Um, I think the biggest piece that we've learned is, um, just making sure that we have everything tidied up from a biosecurity standpoint, it's it was a repeat conversation of you're only as good as your weakest link. You're only as good as your week is like so that one time you gotta run out of the barn real quick to get something that could be the one time that you're introducing it into your houses. Um, I think the challenge with that is we also have, you could have, and this is an industry-wide thing. You have a turnover of an employee. So it's a constant, um, retraining that you're doing constant monitoring of that. Um, and we can only control what we can control, right? So there are still cases that are getting introduced where you really can't even track in from an epi study where it came from, cuz it's, the virus started in the middle of the house, but, um, the other pieces, uh, communication both internally and externally, um, the biggest difference between 2015 and 2022, our amount of communication with our customers, with industry, with our industry peers, um, increased vastly, we were having conversations, um, almost kind of beg, borrow and steal sessions of how can you share breast practices, um, between each other.

Myah Walker (25:05):

Um, and, and just preparing as best we can, um, on an internal standpoint too, where all of our departments know what the worst-case scenario is gonna be, how we're prepping for that from a sales aspect, accounting aspect, um, outside of just ops and having those conversations and just open lines of communication. Mm-hmm

Scott Sorrell (25:25):

Maya, I'm curious, maybe this is more of a question for Julie, but, um, you said you're not sure where, where the infection came from in 2015. Is it possible that there are other reservoirs of the virus that are non-AIAN, uh, humans, rodents? What

Myah Walker (25:44):

Do know about that? That would be a great question for Dr. Card or Julie, I would say in general, uh, when we're talking about just viruses and, and biosecurity in general. Other, we have pest control, they carry different viruses and bacteria into the houses and things like that. So whether it's flies rodents, um, that's a possibility for sure. Mm-hmm but I'll let them chime in

Dr. Carol Cardona (26:08):

Yeah. So

Dr. Julie Helm (26:09):

I'll let Carol take that because I found, well, I'll send one new thing. I know they did studies in 2015 and went through me and I had to add it to my biosecurity talks was, um, was it cottontail,

Dr. Carol Cardona (26:19):

Rabbits, cottontails, rabbits who

Dr. Julie Helm (26:22):

Knows rabbits also. Yeah.

Dr. Carol Cardona (26:24):

And skunks and raccoons. Um,

Dr. Julie Helm (26:28):

Possums do it too.

Dr. Carol Cardona (26:29):

Uh, I don't remember that possums were, maybe they were. Um, but the other thing since then, there's been a couple of studies on, uh, cats, you know, in the New York area, um, with, uh, H seven viruses that came from the live bird markets or that the only known avian source was live bird markets. And that, uh, the last time the H seven had been seen in the markets was five years before, and then suddenly it's in the cats too, so interesting, you know? Yeah. Um, and the other one, I think we strongly suspect, I mean, we know that foxes have, um, you know, been detected as positives in this outbreak, uh, but strongly suspect that domesticated dogs are a potential host, if not a host. Uh, so they've gotten avian strains of influenza in the past. Uh, so given if they were exposed, I think they would also get infected.

Myah Walker (27:30):

This is really good information. Oh, sorry. I was saying that's really good information. Cause I'm thinking about my smaller contract growers, right. Who have their barn kayaks and their dogs on site coming up to the barns. Yeah. And things like that, where no, you need to be thinking about keeping them separate, from your farms.

Dr. Julie Helm (27:47):

Yeah. When I talk to the commercial growers, as well as the small flocks, I say, keep your pests, which are like mice and rats, and your pets, dogs, and cats out of the barn. Mm-hmm

Myah Walker (27:59):

Yep. Mm-hmm

Scott Sorrell (27:59):

. Now is it pathogenic to these other species as well?

Dr. Carol Cardona (28:04):

Never say never with influenza. Influenza is, is always variable, but, um, usually it's not gonna be pathogenic. I think we saw in the foxes, they probably got a big dose. Uh, it got into their brains. Um, mm-hmm it was pathogenic. I think some of the cats in New York, um, had pathogen, you know, were ill, but some of them, some others were not, um, I think the raccoons and the skunks haven't shown clinical signs per se. So it's hard to say, never say never.

Scott Sorrell (28:37):

What about humans?

Dr. Carol Cardona (28:39):

So humans, um, to, to my understanding, we haven't seen anybody infected with this particular strain of the virus. Uh, but, uh, so I would say nonpathogenic. So if it's present , if it got into someone, uh, you know, undetected, it it's because they didn't have any clinical signs at all. Uh, all people who work in, in intensive intensive exposure situations are monitored by local health departments can, you know, really rigorously. So I don't think that we saw anybody infected in the past, of course, in Hong Kong when this, you know, the the the granddaddy first emerged from this family of viruses, it was the first time we thought we learned that humans could be infected with avian strains of influenza viruses. We didn't think that was possible before. So, um, I think it was five or seven people who died in that outbreak in Hong Kong. So yeah. Uh, influenza always is a threat

Tom Powell (29:49):

Um, yeah, just, I guess in the line of questions here, uh, backyard flux, uh, I, I think are our, our, my biggest worrisome when it comes to, uh, AI outbreaks, uh, because of maybe lack of knowledge. I, I think as commercial companies, we, we certainly, uh, uh, do a lot more things, uh, to help prevent the spread. But can you touch on that? I mean, is, is what are, what are your biggest fears around the spreading of the disease?

Dr. Julie Helm (30:27):

Well, I mean, you're right, mostly, the small flocks, because they don't know about influenza. They don't know about biosecurity in general. Um, so when this first occurred here, um, recently we put on a huge backyard biosecurity campaign. And so I have like a small flock email list. I always send out information. We started Facebook, uh, Instagram things that, you know, I didn't even do. I had to learn how to do it, I had to make Facebook videos and all this stuff about biosecurity, trying to catch their eye. What is interesting is, um, in this outbreak, half the cases are commercial and half the cases are backyard flock. So, you know, it was kind of one of, you know, and in 2015 it was a few backyards and mostly commercial. So I know sometimes unfairly, the backyard flock are playing for a lot of things, but, you know, there's a lot of people out there that keep close flock and they don't have disease issues, but they do need the education to know what's going on to be alerted as well as the commercial industry. The backyard industry needs to be alerted as well. And to give, those biosecurity pointers on what to do to help protect their flocks.

Dr. Carol Cardona (31:35):

And we find here in, in Minnesota, I completely agree with, with, uh, Julie. Um, I think, uh, the other thing to mention is that many of the people that are CLA have birds that are classified as backyard flocks, and do a variety of different things with those birds. And, uh, so you have to help them address what it is that, that, that they're doing with those birds. So some are niche marketers, some of them are, um, uh, you know, hobbyists, some of them are poultry breeders, some of them are fours. So, and then there's the person that you think of as the backyard flock owner. So I think those people have slightly different activities and slightly different risks. And so when we get in there and, um, like Dr. Ham has long ongoing relationships with those folks and, uh, she can address their specific needs well.

Tom Powell (32:31):

Yeah. I, I think as a follow up to that, uh, another concern is around the free-range and, and, you know, allowing birds to have more access to, to wild birds. Mm-hmm, , um, thoughts there as, as far as when we get into the outbreak area or control areas, should we change our, our practices on, uh, how we, uh, house the birds.

Dr. Carol Cardona (33:03):

So, um, I'll start with that one since I started something last time , but what we , what we see is that, um, uh, wild birds don't come to poultry farms for no reason they come because they're attracted. Um, they come for the feed, they come for the water, they come for the puddles. They come because so here in Minnesota, for years, we had turkeys on the range. And that's where we famously learned that when we took the birds off of range and put them into barns, we could reduce our low-path avian influenza cases dramatically. Well, the truth is that there are some other things that we could have tried that potentially would have worked as well. The other thing that happened during that time is people say that the flyways shifted west because we stopped feeding all those birds. They stopped flying down through the most affected area.

Dr. Carol Cardona (34:02):

Right. That's interesting. Yeah. so, um, the other, the other thing that I will mention is that we've done a lot of work with the Upland game bird industry. These are folks that raise, um, pheasants and, and other types of birds that are hunted under nets, uh, in, in outdoor pens. And they have the same rate of low path AI introductions as our commercial farms do the commercial farms, having the birds housed indoors and, the Upland game birds are outside under nets. Okay. So I think there's a couple, of things that we have to remember, and it's probably that if we protect the feed and we attack the feed, that those outdoor spaces may be. Okay. I think though, when you, um, look at what happens, if you were to put a camera out, you would see that the ducks and, um, other birds come at night to occupy that land where the chickens are.

Dr. Carol Cardona (35:09):

They don't usually come except for the small songbirds. They don't come during the day, uh, because those chickens are, you know, descendants of T-Rex. So they're pretty fierce . So I think if we looked at it, if we said, okay, let's, let's, let's net, let's keep those birds out at night. I think we might see a different outcome. So I think exposure is kind of common. We think about it is, you know, this outdoor access thing. I think it's a little different than that. And I think it's complicated. And, uh, so do we take away outdoor access, um, with the thought that it's because of high path AI? I don't know. Um, I don't think that we have the data yet back, but I wouldn't be surprised if indoor birds were infected at the same rate or greater rate, than outdoor birds.

Dr. Julie Helm (36:04):

Yeah. And I agree with that. I don't think you can blanket one procedure with everybody because when I often talk to people, I just ask, do you have a pond swampy area lake, do wild ducks or geese land in your pastures where your birds are? And a lot of times they say, no, we never see anything. So of course their risk is lower versus even like a backyard flock or even a commercial farm that has wild bird access right near them, their risk is gonna be higher. So I think I always talk to them about what is your risk? How can you change some things during this high-risk time and, you know, to protect yourself, uh, versus saying, no, everybody must be shut up and go inside because one thing they don't have the buildings for it. So they're made for having their birds outside. So then becomes a welfare issue. The birds are crowded and squished in their houses and they have other issues happen. So you have to kind of work with each system and talk about risk and see how much they're willing to accept.

Myah Walker (36:59):

Yeah, no, the keyword I was, I was hearing when you were talking about that is just site-specific biosecurity. Um, and just knowing, even within our company season to season, depending on what's happening, the biosecurity is going to look different depending on what's going on. And you have to be adaptable to that. Um, there are, there are times where it may be a lower risk, um, cuz there's also a cost that comes with biosecurity that the industry does incur. Um, and you just have to balance that and find that balance, um, when you're, when you're going season to season with different things. So

Scott Sorrell (37:33):

You're right. Maya, there's a, there's a cost of biosecurity, but there's also an infection cost. And so I I'm curious, um, what kind of impact has it had on spar with, with this year and, and then what have you seen also with other players in the industry?

Dr. Julie Helm (37:49):

Yeah,

Myah Walker (37:49):

In terms of economics, I don't have an actual number for the spar. Um, but it, we did take a significant hit when it hit, um, our, our Colorado facility. Um, just to give example, so we, that farm was hit, um, late April and we still haven't been able to repopulate that site. So the whole, all the customers that we source out of there, they're not getting eggs, they're not getting eggs right now. So, um, that means no profit for us from that standpoint. So until we can, and then once we get birds back in, it takes a minute for them to start laying eggs. So, and because we're not, all in all, out, it's gonna be a staggering thing. So it's, it, it's a big impact, um, economically for us, for sure.

Dr. Julie Helm (38:32):

And, and she knows it's beyond money, it's emotional, it's mental health. And maybe you can talk a little bit about that with your yeah. Your growers, how it has affected them.

Myah Walker (38:43):

Yeah. Um, this was the first time I, even though I was a part of it in 2015, this was the first time I was there on-site to see it first hand and to see, um, the mental toll that it takes on the employees, on the owners, on cuz you're, the employees are used to taking care of the birds, right. And now they're in a situation where they can't control anything. And, at the end of the day, they feel like they didn't get to do their job correctly. Right. Um, even though they did the best that they could and you have to kind of repeat that. So it is, it is hard. And when you have, um, contract growers that you're working with and that's, that's all of their livelihood and they don't know what's gonna happen next. Um, as far as are they repopulating or not?

Myah Walker (39:27):

How does that look? Um, there are a lot of unanswered questions when you're going through this process because you don't know the step to step, how long things are gonna take, um, the challenges that you're gonna face. You can prepare all day and there's still gonna be something that you didn't prepare for, that you have to adjust for and adapt to. So it's huge, it's a huge emotional toll, mental toll, the physical toll for the on-site employees, um, handling birds and, and making sure that we're doing everything that we can according to U S D a for depopulation, um, and virus elimination. So it's, it's, it's a lot, it's a lot to handle. Mm-hmm

Tom Powell (40:06):

What is the typical timeframe to repopulate say with turkeys, rollers, and layers?

Myah Walker (40:16):

I don't know if you could say there's a typical, um, for layers. I know they say it could, it could be around three months at the soonest, um, for when you can repopulate your first, uh, flock back and that's meaning everything goes as planned. Your, your Depop goes quickly, your, um, composting or your, your disposal methods go as planned. Um, and then when they U S D a comes to swab to make sure that your, the virus is out of your facility, that goes as planned. So there are a lot of steps in that process. Um, I don't know if Carol or Julie, you guys can speak to the turkeys or broilers.

Dr. Carol Cardona (40:59):

I think the turkeys have been about two months, but sometimes it stretches into three months as well. Um, and I can't, I can't speak to the broilers.

Dr. Julie Helm (41:08):

Yeah. I would think the broilers would be similar to meat turkeys in our 2020, where we just had one farm. I was thinking it was about a, um, about a month, month and a half before he went through all the steps and was able to repopulate mm-hmm

Scott Sorrell (41:22):

how long is the virus, uh, viable on Philo?

Dr. Carol Cardona (41:27):

Well, it depends a lot. And so , if it's wet and it's cold, uh, you know, years, right. That's how we preserve in a freezer. yeah, that's what we do. so if it's, uh, hot and, uh, dry, um, I'm gonna give it a week. Um, you know, so the big question I think is to go to the biosecurity queen, where does it survive? Right. The cold, the cool moist areas.

Dr. Julie Helm (41:58):

Yeah. Protected by either organic material. It can live in those, like those ponds in the cold. And I don't have number stats in my brain, but in those ponds, or I remember it could be like months in those ponds and even in the summer, I think, remember when water was like 80 degrees, it could still be weeks in those duck pond. Yeah. So if, if it's protected and that's the whole point, why we're so excited about summer, and even though it's horrendous temperatures in the south right now, we don't complain a bit because keep you be light, dry out, disinfectants kill the virus. And so the more heat we have, I think, less environmental, uh, transmission between, you know, the wild duck area and, and the poultry barns where they're big or small. So bring on the heat. We want it,

Scott Sorrell (42:45):

Maya, let's talk a little bit about the consumer. You mentioned that, uh, when you guys had to depopulate, uh, consumers are not getting the product, do you have a sense for where they went and, um, how hard's it gonna be to get 'em back or did they, did they quit eating eggs?

Myah Walker (43:02):

they didn't quit eating eggs. okay. Um, and so just quick explanation from, from our standpoint, we have, um, direct to retail, um, which is like the actual grocery store, or we have a customer and they go direct to retail. And then we have food service customers, which is like restaurants and stuff. So there's a balance between the customers and consumers that we're working with. Um, the customers that we're working with that are going to retail, they have other suppliers that they're utilizing. Um, and we've done some, even some packing in the Midwest for other egg layers that have gotten hit. So, we have very friendly relationships when things like that happen, where we try to help each other out where we can to make sure that there are still eggs as much as we can have in the market in supply. Um, so we do have some great customers that, that we had conversations with them beforehand, as prep of here's a situation here's what can happen. Here's our plan response to make sure that you still have product coming in, as best as we can. Um, and they have been willing to work with us and, and wait , um, or outsource where they can until we can get Supplier back in, um, to those locations. So,

Dr. Julie Helm (44:17):

And that's, it's in a balance, a very important topic right there, because pre-2015 before we got our first big outbreak when this was hypothe, was occurring in other countries, all we heard was consumer buying poultry, meat and eggs crashed, and it is not a food safety issue, cuz these birds do not. And their eggs do not go into the market if they have high-fat AI. So in 2015, U S D did a very good job of saying that educational amount is like, this is not a food safety thing. So in 2015, and even now we have not had people backing off in our, our consumer buying is not crashed. Thank goodness. So Maya's able to stay in business even though she has to get eggs from her buddies, her other buddies, which they all the time in the background. So the client never knows , that's all, that's all happening in the background very quickly too, to keep their clients mm-hmm mm-hmm

Scott Sorrell (45:10):

Carol, what kind of impact have you seen during the 2015 outbreak and this 2022 outbreak, what kind of impact did it have on, on the industry and players in the industry?

Dr. Carol Cardona (45:22):

So, um, I think the industry, um, determined after 2015 that they didn't have enough ability to depopulate FLOX quickly. Uh, so they, um, changed, um, and they, they put onto the S D an onto states this 24-hour rule, you know, so they wanted FLOX depopulated as quickly as they were detected. And, um, to prevent that farm-to-farm spread. So farm to farm spread was the ban of 2015. And in 2022, it appears that we have managed that significantly. And so we haven't seen that farm-to-farm spread. If the 2015 dynamics were coupled with the 2022 virus transmission dynamics, we wouldn't probably have a single chicken left in the country. It would be a much, much bigger outbreak. And so, uh, the impact on the industry has been to devote more time, I think, to preparedness. Um, I think, uh, you know, economically, I, I really can't speak to that.

Dr. Carol Cardona (46:29):

Uh, I do think that um, there's been a lot more, um, concern around, uh, the N P I P national poultry improvement plan, influenza and biosecurity, um, plans and, um, rules to try to make sure that we were as prepared as possible. And, um, I think then the other thing would be just this kind of how much time and effort the industry puts into sort of that pre-staging of all their emergency stuff. So, um, Maya spoke about that a little bit, but I can also tell you here in Minnesota, where we've always had avian influenza because of our large numbers of ducks. And then because we have so many turkeys, um, that we have well-defined seasons, um, were of concern. So we know when those migrating birds are going through and that we could expect influenza. So during that time, the Turkey industry does extra surveillance of all of the turkeys that go to the market to make sure that, um, they're detecting any cases before they might expose other poultry. Um, we ask our layer companies to do extra testing before they move PS onto lay farms to make sure that they're not, you know, quietly circulating any influenza that could blow up when it gets to a, um, a layer farm. So those things as well are in place. So I think it's more about preparedness and I don't think, um, I'll leave it, I'll ask Maya too, but, uh, I don't think that the industry's made other changes.

Myah Walker (48:12):

No, I would agree with that statement. Um, the, the preparedness piece, you can't speak of that enough. um, there is a quote that I had heard about you can't, you can't prepare for a rainstorm while it's raining. It just doesn't make sense. Um, and so doing what you can beforehand, um, when you spoke of the bullet movement, that was something new that we did this year, um, that we didn't do in 2015, when we, we need our, we have to move pus to get to the layer farm, to get our eggs and to be sustainable and have that business continuity, even when high path AI outbreak is happening. Right. So doing a pre-isolation movement, um, where we are shutting down all movement for that, um, the pu site and the layer site before birds are moved, making sure there's no chance of a little bit to chance.

Myah Walker (49:00):

I can't say any chance, um, of the introduction of the virus on and off those farms, um, before moving in addition to extra testing. Um, but I will say one of those things it's on, it's an honor system when it comes to that company to company. And so, um, we, we have good relationships with their neighbors and we're having conversations with them, um, to try to hold each other accountable within the industry and saying, yep, we're doing this. Can, y'all do this too. Um, having those conversations, when are you guys moving? What's the route that you guys take, um, so that we can all just do the best that we can for each other in the industry when we're talking about prevention.

Scott Sorrell (49:39):

So ladies, are there any other key topics that we need to cover? We're getting, uh, close to, to the end of our time here, but I wanna make sure that we cover everything that needs to get covered.

Myah Walker (49:49):

um, I think just the biggest thing is communication. Um, in addition to all of this just having that transparency, um, within your company and with your colleagues in the industry, we talked a little bit about backyard flock and their accessibility to this information. Um, we know we have like academia, like extension, um, who are doing the best that they can to reach those populations, but the more we can talk and communicate and reach out to each other, um, letting them know that there are resources, there are so many resources between universities, um, the industry associations, uh, U S D an all of that at our fingertips, that there should be no issue on preparation, right. Um, and having those conversations early on to do what we can

Dr. Julie Helm (50:38):

And backing on that since I am a state person, um, is for the industry to get to know their state people who are, they're going to partner with in this and response. So like, don't get to know who the state veterinarian or the poultry veterinarian for your state is during that rainstorm, that bad time, everybody's stressed. Um, do it beforehand, get together, and go over response things. How do you expect who is gonna be in charge of what, how we're gonna do things? And so, and then they get to, you know, visa versus the state people needing to get to know their industry and who to contact, uh, I think is very important back to that communication. Of course, since I'm a biosecurity queen, right? My little crown , um, biosecurity every day, every day, every day.

Myah Walker (51:21):

Yeah. That relationship piece, I'm just gonna piggyback on that too. Um, that helped things go so smoothly and to be able to have a Dr. Card on speed dial or our, our state veterinarian on speed dial and they, they know our farms, they know our people, they're willing to answer questions, um, quickly, cuz like they have that relationship initially that is, that is a huge game-changer for a response. And even in non-response times, um, peacetime is what I call that. Uh, being able to ask questions and have that open dialogue is really good. People are scared to talk to, to state and federal folks when they, they shouldn't be. You walk that relationship ahead of time.

Scott Sorrell (52:04):

Very well. Well, ladies, I'm out of wild Turkey. That means

Speaker 7 (52:19):

Exactly, oh, that's good.

Tom Powell (52:21):

Have issues

Speaker 7 (52:24):

Lot

Scott Sorrell (52:24):

Issues in addition to lack of wild Turkey. But anyway, with that being said, uh, if y'all could kind of give us kind of, you know, one or two key takeaways from your perspective, from your area of expertise that we should take from this conversation at things that we've learned, things that we need to implement in the future, those kinds of things. And I'm gonna, Tom, I'm gonna start with you chief if, if, if you'll start us off.

Tom Powell (52:48):

Yeah. Um, first off, thanks ladies for all the great information, uh, uh, it's good too, to get information from, from different sides of, of, uh, you know, this, this issue that we're all facing. So, um, Scott, I, I think I've asked all the questions that, that I have of him. Uh, but again, I just appreciate the, uh, the candidness and you guys joining us today.

Scott Sorrell (53:19):

So yeah. I agree. A hundred percent Tom, Zach, uh, what words of wisdom do you have for us?

Zach Lowman (53:26):

I think our main takeaway from this is that the, uh, virus that we experienced this year is pretty, uh, different than what we've experienced in previous years. And biosecurity is always important, but I think it's even more important this year and especially going forward, cuz we're not, uh, sure what may pop up next year, what we may see next year.

Scott Sorrell (53:44):

All right, Maya, thank you for joining us tonight. You've been a great guest. I appreciated, uh, your comments. Uh, what, what final, uh, thoughts would you leave with our audience?

Myah Walker (53:53):

I'm gonna leave two words, prepare, prepare to the point that it becomes a habit for you so that when you're in emergency time, it is you can just you're automatic with it. Um, and then communication, that's gonna be the biggest piece with everybody.

Scott Sorrell (54:08):

Well said mm-hmm and then we'll go to the biosecurity queen uh,

Dr. Julie Helm (54:13):

What can I say, but biosecurity? Um, and I think, and, and we're all this way and including me, we're so busy doing other things that when these large outbreaks and our homework assignments that we still have to do cuz of new stuff from this outbreak that we still have to look into and do is we get busy with other things and then AI goes away for a while and then it may come back next spring. So I think we gotta be careful and keep that momentum going of finishing our plans, our communication, our exercises, our drills, um, like she said so that it just becomes common knowledge when I make the call to somebody going, Hey, you have AV influenza. They're like, okay doc, I know what we're gonna do, you know?

Scott Sorrell (54:56):

And Carol wants to thank you for the webinar you did earlier. And this podcast it's, it's quickly becoming one of my favorites. Thank you for the star studied, uh, guests that you brought with you. Uh, they've been excellent. Um, would you give us just a few final words as we close out here tonight?

Dr. Carol Cardona (55:12):

Always learn, learn about the situation around you. Uh, you know, Zach and Julie both said this is a different outbreak, different virus. Um, no one's gonna have any better information than you will take notes when you're going through these things because, uh, that's the only way you'll prepare for the next one.

Scott Sorrell (55:30):

Mm-hmm ladies. Wanna thank you for joining us tonight and sharing your thoughts on, uh, H P I an uh, HP I, I got it backward.

Myah Walker (55:40):

Dr. Julie Helm (55:43):

We're gonna let it go.

Myah Walker (55:45):

Scott Sorrell (55:47):

And, uh, I, I appreciate, uh, you know, all that you do for the industry. So want to thank you for that, Zach and Tom, thanks for joining, uh, tonight, joining the conversation, appreciate your questions. Um, and I look forward to having you back here again, uh, on the real science exchange, and as always like to thank our loyal loyal listeners, for joining us again, I hope you learned something hope you had some fun, and hope to see you next time here through real science exchange, where it's always happy hour, and you're always among friends.

Speaker 8 (56:15):

We'd love to hear your comments or ideas for topics and guests. So please reach out via email to anh.marketing@balchem.com with any suggestions, and we'll work hard to add them to the schedule. Don't forget to leave a five-star rating on your way out. You can request your real science exchange. T-shirt in just a few easy steps, just like, or subscribe to the real science exchange and send us a screenshot along with your address and t-shirt size to anh.marketing@balchem.com. Che's real science lecture series of webinars continues with ruminant-focused topics on the first Tuesday of every month. Monogastric-focused topics on the second Tuesday of each month and quarterly topics for the companion animal segment visit bache.com/real science to see the latest schedule enter to register for upcoming webinars.