Dr. Hutjens’ presentation focused on herds producing seven pounds of milk fat and milk protein per cow per day, and the genetics, on-farm management and nutrition to make that happen. The panel discusses where components could top out, how added dietary fat has influenced components and the importance of high quality forage to de novo fat synthesis. (4:09)
This episode was recorded in Reno, Nevada, during the 2025 Western Dairy Management Conference.
Dr. Hutjens’ presentation focused on herds producing seven pounds of milk fat and milk protein per cow per day, and the genetics, on-farm management and nutrition to make that happen. The panel discusses where components could top out, how added dietary fat has influenced components and the importance of high quality forage to de novo fat synthesis. (4:09)
The panel explores how well nutritionists are keeping up with rapid genetic change in milk component production and how farmers respond to recommendations for things like rumen-protected fatty acids and supplemental fat. Dr. Nelson shares some of the unique challenges and opportunities faced by the California dairy producers he works with. (11:56)
Dr. Hutjens gives some benchmark values for energy and protein efficiency. The panel debates the merit of energy-corrected milk per stall as an efficiency measure, with the consensus being it might lead to crowding, which would then probably decrease milk and component production due to decreasing cow comfort. The group also discusses selecting for feed efficiency and the heritability of feed efficiency. (16:33)
The panel dives into the topic of feed ingredients. High-oleic soybeans and high quality forages are a focus in some parts of the country. Dr. Nelson discusses non-forage fiber sources available in the California market, such as citrus, plums, apples and carrots. The group talks more about how high-sugar byproducts influence rumen fermentation, which is different from starch, as well as benefits in palatability, digestibility and intake. (21:03)
Dr. Hutjens talks about benchmarks for milk components and different strategies for increasing component production. Rumen-protected amino acids, purchased fats, roasted high-oleic soybeans and urea are discussed. The group also talks about what might happen if milk processors start asking for less milk fat, for example. Dr. Hutjens talks about how nutritionists can help balance rations to yield different results for different markets. (33:04)
Panelists share their take-home thoughts. (40:33)
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Scott (00:10):
Good evening everyone, and welcome to the Real Science Exchange. Where leading scientists and industry professionals meet over our few drinks, discuss related ideas and trends in animal nutrition. Uh, we've got a very special guest with us tonight. Uh, but before I introduce him, what I'd like to do is, uh, introduce our co-host, because it takes two for this gentleman on my right here. Dr. Jeff Zimmerman. He's gonna be, uh, co-host number one. Jeff, just tell us real quickly about yourself. What do you do for biochem? I am
Jeff (00:38):
The director of science. Alright.
Scott (00:39):
For Berkin. Very well. And co-host number two. Dr. Elliot. Jeff Elliot, uh, tell us, uh, tell us a little bit about yourself, Jeff.
Jeff (00:48):
I'm from Amarillo, Texas and I basically do what co-host number one tells me to do.
Scott (00:52):
Okay. There you go. Which is,
Jeff (00:54):
Which is technical support mainly for the Western us.
Scott (00:57):
All right, good. And we'll be, uh, wrestling, Mr. Uh, Dr. Hutchins at this time. And our color, color commentator is Tate Nelson. Tate, tell us a little bit about yourself. Yeah,
Tate Nelson (01:07):
So, um, originally from Visalia, California. Got got my bachelor's at Cal Poly, um, and then did my PhD under a Tom Overton at Cornell finish last July. Now working at Edge Dairy Consulting and I'm an associate now kind of helping them out, trying to help out their workload, trying to help with any technical sup, technical support I can. And, um, trying to learn as a, learn as much as I can. 'cause the learning learning curve to the industry is quite steep.
Scott (01:35):
It is steep. Yeah. Ab absolutely. Well, welcome. Glad to have you here. Glad to be here. Yeah. And then our, uh, special guest, Dr. Mike Hutchins. And this is not your first time to the pub. You've been here. This might even be your third or fourth trip, I can't remember. But, uh, I gotta tell you, Mike, you're one of my favorite, uh, favorite guests, uh, for, for many reasons. I got a couple mike stories and I don't know which to tell, but my, my, so I, the first time I met you, I'm a, I'm a green behind the years, uh, marketing guy. And we fly to, uh, Illinois and, and you were the subject of the very first video that, that I was in charge of. Uh, yeah. I kind of produced that. And so you, you were excellent. You made me look very good.
Scott (02:17):
So thank you for that. Yeah. Yeah. The other story though that I, we, you and I made a trip to China one time together. Oh. And, uh, not good. No.
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Mike Hutjens (04:09):
Yeah. The, the topic was focusing on, uh, uh, herds producing seven pounds of milk fat and milk protein per cow per day as far as that goes. And that's kind of exciting because one, about 80% of the milk in the United States is sold on pounds of milk and pounds of protein. A little bit of for, for lactose as well, but still determines your milk price. So if you produce a thousand pounds of fat each day, then obviously you're gonna get that, uh, times, uh, the current price is about eight to $2.83 cents a pound, protein's about $2.50 cents. And, and that's changing. So that's very important. Second of all, our farmers are asking, well, how do, how can I change that if it's gonna affect my milk price? We know genetics, we know on farm management and of course nutrition Yeah. Are are players on this one as well.
Scott (04:53):
Yeah. So where are we today? So seven I'm gonna assume is aspirational. Well,
Mike Hutjens (04:59):
Ye yes and no. The answer is yes. Seven's used to be six. Yeah. Uh, Tom Overton, in fact said, oh, six pound club. Well now we're talking about the seven pound club. Well, at the farmers we had there today, uh, seven and a half may not cover some in the, in, in the room. So I think if you're looking to hit seven and a half, and, uh, we were just at South Dakota last weekend, there was a farmer had eight pounds of fat together, and you can multiply that by two 60 and you can see kind of cash flow he's generated.
Scott (05:26):
Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. So where can this thing top out?
Mike Hutjens (05:30):
Well, that's an interesting question. I, I really don't know, you know, 20 years ago who thought, you know, we'd have herd averages of 24,000 plus milk, you know, and, and, and that'll be one of the big factors. Yeah. You know, where will our milk production starts to plateau. I don't see it plateauing yet. Yeah. You know, but of course that depends on the price milk and the price feed as far as that goes. Those are big variables as well. The components. Uh, our milk pad, we got a lot of Holstein, honest to goodness, Holsteins. Yeah. 4, 6, 4, 8. Right. You know, and the answer is, wow. How, how do, how do they get there? Jerseys are five. Yeah. So now we got Holsteins almost behaving like Jersey, like jerseys. I'm not so much sure we can push, I dunno, much Pretty sure we can push that. Yeah. But we can push protein. Yeah. Proteins in real opportunity. Yeah.
Scott (06:14):
So I saw a graph, uh, just recently, um, I think Dr. Mike Van Amberg presented it showing the, the, the genomic improvement, uh, uh, recently for milk solids. Yeah. And it's just with, with the advent of genomics has just gone up exponentially. Yeah. And so do you attribute this opportunity to get to seven mostly to genomics?
Mike Hutjens (06:37):
Oh, as a nutritionist, we would never do that. We would never give those genetics guy Rick like that. I, I think a Chad child from Penn State said about 40, 45% he thought was genetics. And then the rest of it is pretty much nutrition and management management's huge. Yeah. Management's huge. 'cause uh, cow comfort and cow crowding and all those things become another effect that actually indirectly affects components. And of course milk yield. Yeah. Yeah.
Jeff (07:03):
Yeah. So have we been there from a nutritional standpoint and even a management standpoint and the genomics mix increase so rapidly now that it's allowing nutrition and management to get us to four six?
Mike Hutjens (07:17):
Yeah.
Jeff (07:18):
See what I'm asking?
Mike Hutjens (07:19):
Yeah. I, I'm not sure genetics got me to four six, but I think added fat to the diet got me to four six pretty fast. Along with high quality forages. And you might ask, well, why high quality forages? Well forages make acetate and as it's a volatile fatty acid, and that's a building block from the mammary gland to actually build fat. And that's kind of the next frontier. Uh, the group at Miner is looking at milk fat, how's it built? How's it put together? Is it synthesized? Big word called dual synthesis? Do they build that stuff? Or do you take and buy some palm oil and the cow eats the palm oil? And she says, well, I'll just put that in the old bloodstream in the mammary gland. We'll, we'll do good stuff with it as far as that goes. So I, I think there's some real opportunities there as well. So, a good question. Yeah. But genetics certainly is, is a portion of it. Oh, for sure. But for our listeners, my genetic says you pick for pounds of fat and protein, not for 4 6, 4, 5, 4 3, because when you go percentages, you select against volume. And that's, that's a no-no.
Jeff (08:17):
Good point. Interesting. Good point.
Mike Hutjens (08:20):
Do you agree or you disagree? I'll
Tate Nelson (08:22):
Absolutely, no, I like do a hundred percent agree. I mean, even when I was doing work in, when I was in Cal Poly, like when I'd go to dairies in California, I mean the butter fats were 3 8 3 9 and that was good. And now when I'm coming back, I mean we're, if like we're below a four, oh, we're kind of disappointed and we need something to work on. I mean, we have a Holstein herd that was like a 4, 6 8 butter fat that was, this was pre bird flu too. So she was, I mean they were cranking out that butter fat. And that's more and more common. Seeing four or two and greater is probably pretty typical. Mm-hmm
Jeff (09:21):
So going back to a question you asked, how high can we go? Because you mentioned the six pound club at Overton, I think, what was it when you started in this industry Jeff play? I'm thinking we were at five, five and a half.
Clay (09:34):
Yeah. I would say it was five. Now we talk, this goes back 15 years, we were talking about one ton herds.
Mike Hutjens (09:43):
One ton herds.
Clay (09:44):
And what we meant by a ton was, you're rolling herd average, they would average 2000 pounds combined of fat and protein. And we had some herds doing that then. Wow. 15 years ago they would've been the top herds then.
Mike Hutjens (10:01):
Interesting. I never thought of that
Clay (10:03):
One ton Cows were very common at that point, but we had a few herds doing it 15 years ago. But it's changed dramatically. Yeah, I know Holstein heard that a couple of months ago was averaging over a five fat and over a three six protein and almost hundred pounds of milk.
Mike Hutjens (10:22):
Wow. That's phenomenal. I'm glad you clarify. I thought a ton you 2000 pound cow. When I'm saying that's a big Holstein cow
Clay (10:29):
That would be a big cow. That's over
Mike Hutjens (10:31):
Eight pounds right there,
Clay (10:32):
Jeff. Yeah, that's, that's over eight and half pounds. See I could do some math. Yeah.
Mike Hutjens (10:37):
So did you do it right? No, that's interesting. Really? Yeah. I'm not sure where, where, where it end up. I I'm think it'll ever end up. 'cause I think you have unique, very unique herds that be it eight and a half, nine. Yeah.
Jeff (10:51):
Well we look at the record cow outta Wisconsin and it is 16 pounds total. Now granted, that's one record cow. Yeah. But is that an indicator of
Clay (11:01):
The genetics? Are there Yeah, yeah.
Mike Hutjens (11:03):
Genetics are there. That's a good comment. I mean, if one cow can do it, then the farmers say, well that cow made that, what's wrong with these other 600 cows? You know, what's their problem? You know? Yeah.
Clay (11:14):
It it is amazing, especially the last two years. I mean, it's been a big change the last 10 years in milk components. Oh
Mike Hutjens (11:21):
Yeah. Yeah.
Clay (11:22):
But if you look at the last two or three years Oh, fat test, it's go it is going up exponentially. Yeah. There are huge changes
Mike Hutjens (11:30):
We're we're seeing that are taking place every year. We were following ho's derman and that's A-D-H-I-R data, a 10th of a point every year. And Holsteins have done that for about five years. Last year. The jerseys figured it out. They went up a 10th of a point as well. But, uh, they're no longer. It's interesting. And I'll bet you a piece of pie. We'll see it again next year when they summarize it. Yeah. That was 4 1 1. And I'll bet you it'll be four too on, on that data source, you know? Yeah.
Scott (11:56):
Yeah. So Mike, I I don't wanna give the geneticist too much credit, uh, but I wanna kind, kind of wanna circle back, right. Genetics, uh, have, have gone up dramatically in recent years and I, I don't wanna put put words in your mouth, but I'm gonna guess that the nutritionists are still still catching up or the industry is still catching up. Would that be a fair statement?
Mike Hutjens (12:17):
Yeah, I think it's a fair statement, but just, just to be devil's advocate, IIII think we say forage quality. Well, we know what forage quality is, but why can't you get me there? You know, you're the farmer. You're growing those forages out there in the program, you know, and I, I think our good nutritionist hot and know how to get milk fat and milk protein. But will a farmer buy run protected amino acids? Right. Will they buy palm fat at 13, 14, $1,500 a ton? Right. And then our comment was, you better push a pencil while the cows figure this out. 'cause if you're, if you're buying a dollar's worth of fat and you're getting 90 cents bulk tank, not a good deal. Not a good deal.
Scott (12:51):
Yeah.
Mike Hutjens (12:51):
So I think we have the, I think we have the knowledge there. You look at these meetings and we have speakers here, you know, that are Yeah. That are, are saying some really neat things and they all kind of fold in nicely into a, into a component type talk.
Scott (13:03):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Good point. I'm just, uh, Tate, from your perspective, um, do you feel that that, that that nutritionists are, are catching up with the game or, or stand stand aboard and getting any pushback from dairy farmers?
Tate Nelson (13:18):
No, I, yeah, I would say for the most part we're being as doubt in as we can. And I kinda think we're, we're always learning more stuff. I mean, there's different frontiers. I mean, I would love to learn more. I would love to ask you, Mike, more about your take on sugars. That's kind of something that I kinda think is an area that needs to be more focused on areas of opportunity to help with RU development and just overall healthier rus. And there's just different areas that we're still learning more and more about. Um, and we're always trying to find metrics to try to better understand how our rations are looking and a better ways to look at things. And there's new things coming out all the time. And I think just for the most part, we're as dialed in as we can. Dairymen are gonna push back if it just doesn't make sense to them.
Tate Nelson (14:01):
And it all depends on their situation, depends on the amount of land they farm, their water situation. Um, depends on the weather, um, on what, how much base they have. I mean, there's a lot of different things that can kind of go into what they can push or not. And it all, we just try to find that right balance of making it as profitable as possible. We're always pushing for more, but it's not always right to do it in that sense too. Whether, I mean, whether they don't have the availability to push butter fat, now let's try to push other things or, or the palm's really expensive. Let's like try to go to better forge sources rather than like trying to go higher forge or higher priced fat supplements and kind of things like that. Just trying to always balance just the right way of like pushing for the most milk, most, most productive cows, but also making them the most money at the end of the day too. Yeah.
Jeff (14:47):
Yeah. So earlier you mentioned like milk, fat, milk protein on some of those herds. In general, the herds y'all are working with in California, is it energy corrected milk? Is it pounds of fat and protein? What are they wanting to gauge on? Or does it matter?
Tate Nelson (15:05):
Yeah, I think at the end of the day, the one that we look at most is energy corrected milk. We probably, I mean, maybe different groups are different in our area, but we don't usually do pounds of fat and protein as much. I think that, um, I think for us, we like to look at fat probably the most. And then flow's a big one too. I mean, energy corrected milk's a good wave. We're shooting for a hundred plus ECM and that all depend on their butter fat. So if their flow is lower than we would like, then maybe there's other things that we need to look at to try to get that higher. And, and if they're, and if their fat or protein is lower, then we'll look at different ways to kind of maximize that as well. Look at, uh, milk area. Nitrogen's a big one. That's a very helpful way to look at how our rations are doing. Um, yeah, I'd say those are the main things that we look at on the creamery summaries and things like that to see kind of how we're performing.
Mike Hutjens (15:57):
It's, it's, it's interesting, uh, we said there's two more things. The energy corrected milk, that's kind of an energy dry matter thing, right? Well, the components, I think it'll mimic it, but take the dry matter and divide it into the pounds of fat. And if you're over 12%, you're really, you're really cooking. You're really cooking. So if a cow's eating 50 pounds of dry matter, you know, and, and she's, uh, producing seven pounds of product, big number. But if it's 10%, then you better do some looking.
Jeff (16:23):
So I was gonna ask you that, 'cause you always talk about feed efficiency. Yeah. And there's always milk over dry matter intake. Right. And 1.4, 1.6. So if you changed that, I didn't
Mike Hutjens (16:33):
No, not really, because we did the other thing. We, we looked and said, okay, I, I take this milk and go to energy corrected, I'll get that about the same number as I had a three five. That's how the formula was working as far as that goes. So we didn't change that. So a good herd will be 1 7, 1 8, if you go components, you'll be at 12%. And if it's milk protein and that will come, that will come. If you're getting 35 plus you're really smoking, in other words, pounds of crude protein in and pounds of true protein coming out. And if you're over 35% and those folks at Cornell says if you get it right, you'll get 40. But that's, you should see that diet. It's, it's a pretty unique diet to get to 40 mm-hmm
Jeff (17:11):
Talking about nitrogen efficiency there.
Mike Hutjens (17:13):
That's correct. Yeah. So protein efficiency, uh, component efficiency, energy efficiency. If you go to New Zealand, it is, uh, pounds or a kilograms of solids per hectare, you know, and the new one will be methane. How much methane are you getting per unit of, for energy corrected milk or whatever we need.
Jeff (17:32):
Yeah. I had a nutritionist last week that said it ought to be energy corrected milk, whatever it is over stall.
Mike Hutjens (17:39):
Interesting. Yep. And
Jeff (17:40):
That's how they wanna look at it per stall.
Mike Hutjens (17:43):
I'd have to think about that a little. It's kind of an excuse
Tate Nelson (17:45):
The crowd probably, right? I mean if they're, if they're producing a lot of ECM per stall
Scott (17:49):
And these crowd like crazy and they're gonna go off per stall. Yeah.
Mike Hutjens (17:52):
And by the way, the Rick Grant's presentation today said you crowd 'em and you know what happens to your components down they go. Yep. So, you know, so if you go milk, if you per stall, there's evil things you can do with, uh, animals per stall, you know, you can crowd the, you can really crowd 'em up. And it's interesting. I appreciate that. Never thought about that. I a think about that,
Scott (18:15):
You know, kind of a related topic. I was talking to a nutritionist, uh, earlier today talking about the variation between cows and efficiency and uh, I guess he had listened to a talk earlier today where they're able to, uh, measure cow efficiency and, you know, some that are eating a lot of dry matter and not giving a lot of milk and then vice versa. And so really ought to be getting a lot more, uh, you know, precise about measuring efficiency per cow if we can. Right.
Mike Hutjens (18:46):
And, you know, you can genetically select for that now with bulls on feed residue or feed re feed refusal. I, I shouldn't say that. What's the right
Clay (18:54):
Residual feed intake
Mike Hutjens (18:55):
Residual feed, that's a big word. Residual feed intake, you know, and it's part of the net merit equation. Very small percent. And the problem is we can't measure it very easily on farms. You always gotta come to universities to get to find out which bulls are ing which cows that eat eats less feed, but still produce seven pounds of solids. Yeah. And so, uh, hang onto your hats. I mean, 'cause uh, that would really, that's another genetic way we could really Yeah. Increase our
Scott (19:21):
Changer. How heritable is that?
Mike Hutjens (19:25):
I think, Jeff, you should answer that question.
Clay (19:32):
Question. There's been a lot. Yeah. There's been a lot of that research done at the universities. Like Mike said, I think there were six or seven that have been involved in that mm-hmm
Scott (19:44):
So I don't wanna go down a rabbit hole. What's the biology behind that that makes a cow more efficient than another cow?
Mike Hutjens (19:52):
Well, that's easy. I mean, you're a little skinny guy and you probably eat more than I do, you know? And yet I'm very efficient. You just look at me, I'm very efficient
Clay (20:09):
There's a lot of biology there, right? Yeah. So how efficiently does the small intestine absorb nutrients, for instance. But there are a lot of hormonal differences there too that could lead to
Mike Hutjens (20:19):
That. Yeah. What kind of microbial bacteria are in the rumen? 'cause we know exactly that some cows have a totally different floor. And what's amazed me is they'll, they'll take all officially a cow, take all the bacteria outta one cow, switch it to another cow and 10 days later Yeah. It's all back to where it was they started with and you're going now, wait a minute. Yeah.
Scott (20:35):
And that's established as a calf, right? As I, as I recall. Yeah.
Mike Hutjens (20:39):
I don't know about
Scott (20:40):
That. No,
Mike Hutjens (20:41):
I don't know about that.
Scott (20:42):
I'm not sure. I don't know.
Mike Hutjens (20:44):
I bet your piece of pie's not
Scott (20:52):
Mike Hutjens (21:03):
Well, I'm, I'm sure my California people get enthused about this, but the high oleic soybeans in Pennsylvania, New York and Michigan, huge. So now I can grow the desired fatty acids that can really improve butter fat test. I don't have to buy a palm or, yeah. Or, or, or star or, or or something like that. So I, I, I think that's, uh, that, that, that's exciting. Uh, the room protect amino acids. It's real. Yeah. The problem, my dairymen are having 2 cents a gram. Now, let tell you, you'll blink if you're gonna put in 20, 30 grams of a room protected amino acid, you know, uh, all of a sudden here's another 30, 40 cents and you work with these dairymen in California, I'll tell you for a dime, I think they'll do anything to get another dime per cow per day or save another dime per cow per day, uh, as well in, in, in the program.
Mike Hutjens (21:52):
So certainly, you know, I I, I think this whole thing on of income over feed costs continues to really drive. And why some farmers are saying, nah, I'm not gonna do that. I'm not gonna do that. As far as that goes as well. And then of course, high forage, high quality forages as far as that goes, is, is huge. And, and, and we're, I, I think we know how to do it. The question is, can we grow it? We know how to do it. Can I grow it on a farm and capture that, uh, quality and
Scott (22:16):
Why can't we?
Mike Hutjens (22:18):
Yeah. Some of it is weather, some of it is equipment delay, uh, custom harvesters, if you're in California, it's, it's not a magic answer 'cause of water and land. So my question for the California dairy, I mean, will we start seeing people coming further east where there is water in South Dakota and Nebraska and Kansas are big examples. They're growing Texas, just growing all kinds of Texas, I'm not sure about. Yeah. But growing all kinds of more, more farms to the point now that we see cheese plant plants and processing plants coming to those areas. And those guys know, and GAILs know that if, if they're gonna build a billion dollar or whatever it costs to build that plant, they're, there's gotta be cows there. There's gotta be cows there. So, uh, again, that's another dynamic as far as that goes. And you've got some interesting labor costs in California too. We were reading in one of the farm magazines, uh, 40 hours and overtime. K and that, and lemme tell you, I don't think you'll see that in South Dakota.
Tate Nelson (23:14):
No, definitely not. Yeah. Yeah. It just forces us to be as efficient as possible. Yeah. And I think very cost effective in other ways too. That's why I think with some of the rumen protected amino acids and other things that are probably more top, top level, not always the high, the lowest hanging fruit. And so that's why we focus on things like the, like the non forged fiber sources using byproducts, using things like sugar. So like we use a lot of citrus in California. We use a lot of weight in California for the sugars just as trying to get around it as cheaply and still getting good quality. But just trying to maximize that. 'cause we are limited in what we can do. And the margin for error is slim. So you, so you can't mess around and Yeah. The day of the small dairyman in California is gone. So all the small ones are getting bought up by bigger ones and they're being more and more efficient and it's gonna be the same amount of cows. It's just a lot less dairymen.
Mike Hutjens (24:02):
So let's answer your question. What about this sugar? And we're recommending seven, seven and a half percent total sugar.
Tate Nelson (24:08):
Yeah. You know, so we have guys that are feeding up to 12% sugar. Wow. And, and they're doing fine. Wow. And it's, yeah. And I, and, and some of those higher, I mean, I'm not sure if it's just from what I'm seeing, but I'm seeing like I really do think it has a butter fat effect. I mean, I really think it helps that rumen stay healthy, that butyrate is a very important thing. And yeah, so we're feeding, some of our guys are probably feeding lower, but we don't feed much lower than seven 8%. We have probably closer to, yeah, we have like a couple of my bosses like to feed nine, 10, 11% and that's pretty normal.
Mike Hutjens (24:41):
So where are they getting all that sugar from? Because in the Midwest molasses is, people look at that and say, ah, I see sesame. That's a computer program. Ah, it's not a good buy. Not a good buy, you know, so, and we don't have bakery race or there is some, but you know, we have way too many calories. What are you using? A
Tate Nelson (24:56):
Lot of fruit. So it's citrus, ah, it's really, really big in citrus than we have during summer. Different times of year we have like plums, we'll have apples, we'll use some carrots. There's, there's so many different kind of fruit, different byproducts that we, that we use. It is a good product and, and has some good fiber in there too. It's a very, it's a non non forage fiber, but we, yeah. But it's citrus is the main one. Whether citrus peels or citrus hole or citrus pulp. Like it's very,
Mike Hutjens (25:22):
So, so we're clear you're not going to the local grocery store and buy a bag of oranges? No, no. These are all not fit for human consumption. Is that right?
Tate Nelson (25:29):
Or? I mean, you can't eat 'em. There's some that are whole oranges that look fine, you can peel 'em, it's fine. It's just part of that whatever reject process that the plants are doing and things like that too. And we also feed a lot of weight. There's a decent amount of weight that's fed too. Yeah. So, so Tate, what would the starch levels be in those days? Starch, I mean, so yeah, so, um, probably at the upper end, probably high twenties, we have some, we, I think we have one or two herds that are in the low thirties. But for the most part we have probably 22 to 25, 20 6%. That's pretty normal. We, we look at a lot in our rations as starch plus sugar as part of our things. And so for a high at cow ration, if we're 32 and above, we're probably in a good spot. I mean, we can even push harder for that too. But yeah, we try to make those numbers kind of balance. And so whether that's starch or sugar, we kind of equalize it a little bit.
Mike Hutjens (26:21):
And what expects me, they, they, they, they're different in the rumen for sure. Yeah. And, and that, you know, so don't, don't say, well, sugar's cheap, I'm just gonna get the starch out. They behave differently. Yeah.
Tate Nelson (26:30):
Yeah. And we have to do other things as well too. So we have to, yeah, we have to kind of replace that and replace it in different ways too. So whether it's changing around the forages, changing around the other feeds in there too, just to try to balance some of that. And I think probably with starch you wanna push for more high quality forages typically to like, probably balance that. Where I think with sugars you can get away with it a little bit more with using more byproducts. Some non, some more non forage fibers. But yeah, so we balance them. But yeah, we typ, we definitely don't look at them as a one-to-one replacement in the rumen.
Mike Hutjens (27:04):
And, and, and this is getting off the topic a little bit, the sugar does some pretty neat things. It's a different rate of fermentation in the rumen and it increases palatability and it increases n df digestibility. Mm-hmm
Tate Nelson (27:16):
And I think it's, we're trying to figure out too, what I'm interested in is like the different sources listed to a podcast. And I had, and I hadn't even thought about it, but wave versus like a citrus. I mean, it's gonna be, it's a, there are different sugars. I mean it's a galactose versus a fructose. And that how that degrades in the rumen is gonna be very different 'cause it's a one one versus a two saccharide kind of a sugar. And so, and that's something I'm trying to understand a little bit more too and kind of how, how that goes and trying to maybe balance for that. Which one would have an advantage over the other at this point? I think it just, yeah, it depends on availability. I mean, citrus, we like citrus and fruits a lot, so that fructose we like know it's gonna get broken down quickly. Um, whereas with whey, I think it's variable from plant to plant about how much is actually in, it's not always the same. We'll just get sum bottles that look like they're green and it's not always consistent. Where I think with, at least with the fruits and the sugars, you can get a little bit more con more a co consistency if it's like from a good source.
Jeff (28:15):
How would the molasses compare to whey from a top of sugar? Kind of the same question you were.
Tate Nelson (28:22):
I believe it, it's probably glucose, it sucrose,
Mike Hutjens (28:23):
Right? Well, whey would be a galactose, uh, glucose molecule as far as that goes. And uh, and, and molasses will be all glucose. Yeah. And that's a saccharide, so mm-hmm
Tate Nelson (29:04):
Yeah. Yeah. And I think with some of the ways, some of the fruits as well too, I think for us it's big as getting the right dry matters. I think with water availability as well. I think we struggle with, we just can't just dump a bunch of water on something and we, and we run a drier diet typically than probably a northeast ration would look like. And so getting some of those things like a citrus or fruits or carrots, even the molasses too is a good way to kind of help get that dry matter down to keep it more palatable. It's less sortable and that's kind of a big thing that we try to maximize as well too.
Clay (29:35):
Tate, how consistently can you get those sources on farm?
Tate Nelson (29:40):
I think decent. I mean, from what I understand, I mean, I think 10 or 15 years ago was a lot more variable. Now that byproduct market is pretty saturated. So I think there's a lot of competition where these plants are, it's, it's a big market for them selling, selling at Tully's dairymen. So, so they try to make sure it is as consistent and as good as they can. I mean, it's all reject fruit, but, but they try to make sure it's good because I mean, if the, if it's a bad, bad load, it's moldy, we can send it back or not, like use it. And yeah. I mean the word spreads, there's a lot of competition. So we, we try to keep that tight.
Jeff (30:14):
Do cows like grapefruit because I think it's a little sour
Tate Nelson (30:17):
Myself. We have fed grapefruit, we've, yeah, we've fed some, I'm trying to think here, or
Jeff (30:21):
Orange peels.
Tate Nelson (30:22):
Yeah, feed orange peels. Yeah. They like really don't mind it. Yeah. There's a lot of different fruits that we use.
Mike Hutjens (30:29):
I got a feeling you're not a cow though, so I, I'm not sure if that comment is, is is appropriate, but that's, that's okay. It feels good. It's good.
Tate Nelson (30:37):
Yeah. We have pomegranates, there's, yeah. I mean whatever California has, we can, we can feed a byproduct of, so Yeah,
Scott (30:43):
For sure. How consistent do you have to be between types of fruit that you're feeding? Do you have to, you know, if Okay, if they're on, uh, oranges, they stay with oranges and I,
Tate Nelson (30:51):
I, well it has to shift throughout the year because there's different growing seasons. Got it. And so yeah, you try to switch, I, yeah, I believe more in the summer there's more plums I think. And then in the fall there's more citrus spring or citrus, I think. Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm not, I'm still kinda learning that market, but they're, yeah, they have to trade off a little bit at least.
Scott (31:10):
Is the nut supply
Tate Nelson (31:11):
Consistent for the most part? Because I mean, those almond holes, you can store them for quite a while and so those, so those hole people have gotten good at Yeah, they like know there's a lot of value there and so they can store them, well, can store them for quite a while. So we, it's pretty consistent for the most part. Try to make sure, we always try to make sure that we're testing that, make sure it's not, it's prime almond holes and it's good quality 'cause they're not blending in some of the bad stuff. But yeah, for the most part it's really consistent.
Mike Hutjens (31:36):
What's the bad stuff?
Tate Nelson (31:38):
A lot of sticks, a lot of other things that are not the holes. Um, and or poor, poor quality holes too, whether they're moldy or kind of things like that too.
Scott (31:49):
Any downsides other than the bad stuff defeating commodities like that?
Tate Nelson (31:55):
I think it's just, yeah, I think we're trying to understand more from the forge side and kind of when, when you pull a test for what our rations will look like, we're relative to like a northeast herd or a, um, or farms from the Midwest, our forage levels are gonna look really bad just 'cause it's not the typical forage that we kind of think and we're trying to figure out what exactly is the right number for us. 'cause there's no way we can get there based on just our soils, our weather and our water sources. And so I think we're trying to figure out like what exactly when you're looking at forage fiber, like what's the correct number for California? So, so all of, all of my bosses, I'm sure have a base in their mind kind of how they like to look at it and um, yeah. And so it's trying to figure out how to get that you can feed too much of it. And then I think they're not getting as much quality forage from like a dry hay or kind of things like that too. So trying to find good other quality sources as well. Mm-hmm
Scott (32:52):
Mm-hmm
Mike Hutjens (33:04):
Well, I I, I think, uh, I get in big trouble because some people don't like benchmarks, but, uh, I like a benchmark and see how are you measuring up and maybe that benchmark is your neighbor or your state or what, what or region what, whatever it is. But, uh, you know, it's every, I I, I'm gonna argue and maybe you wouldn't agree with me, but, you know, we can get four, four and four sixes, but I've gotta get some volume. And so, uh, if you wanna be one of the, the, the guys up at seven and a half, you better be about 115 or 110 pounds of milk. And then whatever components you and your nutritionist can, can build into it as far as that goes. So that's, that, that's the question, you know, how, what was my strategy and how to get there? And sugar would be a question to come in room protect amino acids, uh, per, uh, purchased, uh, uh, fats, dry fats, ole soybeans, that that, that one is for us here in the Midwest and northeast is, is really a no brainer because the, the seed doesn't cost anymore.
Mike Hutjens (33:59):
The yield is the same here and it's very ru friendly. Yeah. Very ru friendly. And they roast them. So that gives me some RUP that should helps me on my protein side. Protein, uh, on soybeans or soy meals, it's pretty, pretty good, you know? So, uh, it's, it's kind of a win-win. And so we're, we're seeing questions with that, you know, and how much to feed. And one guy said five pounds of magic and he was a good farmer 'cause he checked three, five, and seven and his cows said five. And so, you know, I'm not sure everybody should say five, but, uh, that's the beauty being a dairy farmer. Yeah. You ask your cows how are you gonna respond as far as that goes as well. Uh, the ru degraded protein is important 'cause that drives the rumen bugs. Mm-hmm
Jeff (34:57):
Yeah. What about some urea with 12% sugar rations kind of
Mike Hutjens (35:04):
Marriage. Marriage in heaven. Yeah. Marriage because they're both gonna go fast. Now if you've got a slow release urea, a little different story probably. But if it's honest to God, raw feed, not fertilizer, grade, feed, grade urea and sugar, that, that should really work. And then that's kind of trying to get them to go together, you know, to synchronize them. So the bugs go wild, meaning really grow, really grown. Mm-hmm
Tate Nelson (35:26):
Jeff (35:28):
So a question I had last week as well. So we've got milk fat up, let's say four or 5, 4, 6. Yeah. And we can probably go higher. Yeah. Protein has went up, but not to the level fat has. No. Does there come a time with that difference that the processors get involved for whatever they're manufacturing that are saying, uh, we don't need any more spread, we need to keep it here. Yeah.
Mike Hutjens (35:56):
In fact, there was a, at that Sioux Falls meeting, uh, there was a farmer who had four six butter fat and they're going to a fluid market and they had to go and buy other milk to blend it in or down whatever word you want to use to, to produce the fluid milk that they were gonna put on the shelf, which is, could be three, two or 2% or whatever it is. And if we're gonna make cheese, big deal. Yeah. Because obviously protein's really gonna drive, drive cheese from that aspect there.
Clay (36:23):
They have to skim more fat. What they have to skim more fat off of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Mike Hutjens (36:28):
Yeah. But there's markets for that. Yeah. But the question I have with fat, you know, uh, all this Irish butters coming into their country, you know, and that's 82% fat. And of course they're getting more pasture based, so they got some more CLLs. I think if you're nutritious, you can figure that out in no matter five minutes on how you can make your cows produce, uh, more CLA in the milk and, uh, well the fat, that's, that's a processor problem or opportunity. I, i code at this point. And then you look at fair life, you know, and, and fair life here. We sit, you know, with 50% protein, uh, 20%, uh, take a bunch of lactose out of it and people are going nuts on a deal like that. And Coca-Cola is selling the daylights outta that Coca-Cola. So we're, where is my, where, where's the dairy industry? On, on, on a deal like that? And then in the Middle East, uh, they eat white cheese. They don't eat yellow cheese. Well, why don't we sell 'em white cheese? We can sell 'em white cheese, you know? Uh, but anyway, those are some other important things I think for the deer industry to look at and say, are there other opportunities to sell more milk solids, uh, in the, in the international market or even, even maybe here at home?
Scott (37:37):
Well, yeah. You were talking, uh, earlier, uh, Mike before we got on air here, is that, you know, the opportunity for higher fat milk, right? Yes. People are using raw milk today and loving it because they think it's raw milk. It's, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's why don't you talk a little bit about that.
Mike Hutjens (37:50):
Yeah. We, we got, in Illinois, you can buy raw milk, but you gotta go to the farm and buy it. And we have one a farm that actually well bottle it. So they put it right in a bottle. But of course it's clearly marked and it's inspected as far as that goes as well. But it's jersey milk. Can you imagine drinking whole jersey milk and say, you know, this really tastes even better. It tastes differently. That's gotta be raw milk in it. No, no, no, no, it's not. It's nothing to do with raw milk. Right. And we were in Japan a number of years ago and they, one of the more popular, not, not, not huge 4% fat, because certain Japanese love the taste of it. And if you look at Japanese, they don't look like me. They can probably drink 4% fat, fat milk as, as far as that goes as well. 'cause trust me, we grew up on milk outta the bulk tank on our farm. And I tell you, it tastes different there than it does when we drink our 2% at home.
Scott (38:39):
Yeah. Yep. Sounds like another podcast we need to have with some processors. And some marketers. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mike Hutjens (38:47):
Opportunity. I think think there's opportunities. There's challenges. Yeah. But every time there's a challenge, right? There's an opportunity. Yeah.
Scott (38:52):
Absolutely. Yeah. Good. Mike, we left any, uh, any ground unplowed yet on this, on this topic?
Mike Hutjens (39:00):
No. I, i i, I think it's an exciting topic and I, and I, I think we're gonna see some more guidelines and benchmarks and what it can need. Uh, you should ask me if I, if I'm pulling, uh, it's easy math because every, every pound of solids you just like a blend of the two summers around $2 and 60 cents a pound. So trust me, if you, if you produce another pound, that's another $2 and 60 cents, my cows are gonna be able to sell every day. Yeah. Every day as far as that goes. Yeah.
Scott (39:26):
Yeah.
Mike Hutjens (39:26):
And I think the only un unknown is that we got a whole bunch more cheese plants gone up in the United States. Yeah. So ring produces a lot more cheese this coming year. And where will it go? It's not gonna go to China. We can figure that out. It's not go to Canada
Scott (39:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (40:06):
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Clay (40:33):
So it is amazing how much milk components have changed over the last 10 years and, and it's accelerating so the benchmarks are changing. Right. And you need to think about that with your herds. I remember when I started in the industry, as long as you had a three five fat test, you were fine. That's right. You'd get fired for that today. Mm-hmm
Scott (40:59):
They are. Yeah. Good times to be a nutritionist Tate.
Tate Nelson (41:03):
Well, yeah, it's interesting times for sure with, with everything that's gone on. But yeah, I just, I just think trying to find the right metrics for your farm is the most important thing and getting the most solids is a very important thing. And I, and I, and I think at the end of the day, it's what the in industry should strive for. But with our clients, we're trying to find what is most important to them, what's the biggest deal for what they have available to them in terms of market or base or whatever they have prices. And so I think just trying to find the most profitable is kind of the big thing that we try to look at and make them as profitable as possible. And I think just trying to producing more butter fat, producing more protein, producing more solids, just means a healthier cow. And I think that that cow's gonna be around longer gonna be very productive. And I think it's always good to shoot for is just yeah. Keeping 'em around.
Scott (41:50):
Yeah. Well said. Well said Jeffrey.
Jeff (41:54):
So Jeff mentioned starting at a 3.5%, you know, when we started this Tate's starting his career
Scott (42:17):
Maybe
Jeff (42:18):
We're gonna be higher. Yeah. But it all still comes down to the ROI and evaluating everything. Mm-hmm
Scott (42:29):
Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, good comments, Jeff. Mike gonna give you the final words. Yep. Final
Mike Hutjens (42:33):
Word. I just say one, I think we need to understand where the components are coming from and then ask on the farm, uh, can I participate in that route? Whatever. If it's vegetable, if it's palm, whatever the case is, understand where they're coming from. And then my last one will be proteins, coming guys, proteins coming. The world wants to eat animal protein, beef, pork, Turkey, fish, you name it. And dairy can be right there with 'em as far as that goes. Especially when we look at restaurants and processing. Now there's really great places, so don't ignore that protein. And I think there's some real opportunities there as well.
Scott (43:07):
Yeah, yeah. Great. Mike, this has been enjoyable. You're always entertaining. Appreciate you joining us here,
Speaker 4 (43:30):
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