Guests: Dr. Charles Starkey, Joshua Flees, Justin Dunavant from Auburn University This week's episode features several guests from one of the top companion animal research programs in the country, Auburn University. This group focuses on joining sustainability with functionality, specifically up-cycling low value proteins with food technology.
This week's episode features several guests from one of the top companion animal research programs in the country, Auburn University. This group focuses on joining sustainability with functionality, specifically up-cycling low value proteins with food technology.
Dr. Starkey begins by explaining that changing eating habits of Americans has led to utilizing organ meats for pet food, as the supply is plentiful and the cost is low. (10:35)
Joshua Flees said that while the research isn’t complete, by using these types of products (organ meats, wing tips) a few dollars worth of value can be added to a feasible product. (20:40)
Dr. Altom summarized the process used to turn some of these products into a more usable protein, which is hydro coli technology, where a sodium algenate is blended into the meat mixture to be properly hydrated, then mixed with a calcium ion. (25:28)
Dr. Starkey addresses the concern of bone fragments in pet food. He mentioned there are a lot of technologies such as x-ray to make sure fragments aren’t included. By grinding bone fine enough to be below the safe threshold, they can still utilize the protein and how it aids the hydrocoli technology and gelling. (36:51)
Dr. Altom wrapped up by commenting that as the pet and human population grows around the world, pets and humans will be competing for the same protein and amino acid choices. We will have to find new and different ways to provide nutrition to pets, such as these co-products and whole animal opportunities. (54:15)
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Scott Sorrell (00:00:07):
Good evening everyone. And welcome to the real science exchange. At the pub, we're leading scientists and industry professionals. Meet over a few drinks to discuss the latest ideas and trends in animal nutrition. Hi, I'm Scott Sorrell. One of your hosts here tonight at the real science exchange tonight, we have the pleasure of learning more about one of the top companion animal research programs in the country, and possibly even the world operated by Dr. Charles Starkey at Auburn university. This group is on the cutting edge of research that marries sustainability and functionality joining us at the pub. Tonight are three guests to share a little more insight into this illustrious program. Let's start with Dr. Charles Starkey, Charles. You've joined us here at the real science lecture series in the past, but this is your first time here at the podcast. So welcome. And thank you for jumping tonight.
Dr. Charles Starkey (00:00:56):
Thank you, Scott. I appreciate it.
Scott Sorrell (00:00:59):
Yeah. Yeah. So I see you've brought a team with you. Would you mind introducing your students and then telling us what's in your glass tonight?
Dr. Charles Starkey (00:01:08):
Absolutely. we have Justin, I think he's drinking a Tom Collins. I've got a bourbon and then we have Josh who's about to graduate with his Ph.D. and he's just having a good old beer.
Scott Sorrell (00:01:23):
Yeah, good congratulations. My co-host for tonight's conversation has joined us on several occasions before, so welcome back to Dr. Eric Altem. Eric was just named an FIA's member of the year, so congratulations, Eric and so proud of you for all the hard work that you've put in with the AIA. And we appreciate all the work that you've done for B as well. So Eric, when you're celebrating and, and toasting special occasions what are you usually U what's usually in your glass?
Dr. Eric Altom (00:01:53):
Well, Scott, you know, me I try to stay pretty, pretty clear-headed. So I'm drinking ice tea tonight. I've been with these young men before and as you know, someone has to keep 'em through the, in between the guard Wells just a little bit. So I told them to have fun and I'll be in charge of the bail money when and if needed. So
Scott Sorrell (00:02:20):
Good deal. So, Eric, I know you've known Charles over the years. Do you have any good stories you can share?
Dr. Eric Altom (00:02:27):
Oh, I got a lot of stories about whether or not
Scott Sorrell (00:02:30):
So that you can share
Dr. Eric Altom (00:02:32):
They're in there, in lives are one criterion. No, Charles and I have known each other for many years. He has worked in the industry as well and knows the people in the pet food industry well respected. And since I joined B Kim, Charles, and I have been able to take our working partnership to the next level, especially with his program he's allowed me to come in and be part of his team and a technical asset, and I enjoy it. It is around the students has taken, pushed me to go to that next level as well, learning new technologies, getting back into the books, studying some of the literature, and trying to figure out how some of these things may work. That we'll talk about tonight, but yeah, I've got a lot of stories about Charles, but he's got just as many about me, so
Scott Sorrell (00:03:31):
Nuclear weapons pointed in both directions. Well,
Dr. Eric Altom (00:03:32):
The weapons, yeah. You know this is one that it'll, it'll kick on both ends. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna probably stay pretty silent on some of those stories.
Scott Sorrell (00:03:43):
All right. Sounds good. Listen, I gotta tell you about my drink tonight. I dunno if you guys have ever watched Yellowstone it's one of my, favorite stories that are, or programs that I got watching during the pandemic and my local state store has the Yellowstone bourbon. So, Charles, I like Woodford's. I typically drink that, but I bought this the other day. One, bottle per customer. That's all they allowed me to have. It's pretty good. I'm not, I, I, I don't know that I've got a great bourbon pallet, but it it's as good as any I've had before. So, I will recommend it. So sounds good, Charles, to get us started. Why don't you tell us a little bit about your program, you know, how to get started? How many students do you have? What kind of facilities do you have? Research capabilities, curriculum, those kinds of things.
Dr. Charles Starkey (00:04:33):
Yeah. Scott. So we're a, we're a dual program department where we have P science and food science and coming from a feed and animal food background. To me, food science means human food, of course, but also food for animals and pets and things like that. And so our department's already set up kind of as a good marriage between the two live poultry production, as well as food science. So I've, I've spent the last several years in the industry and working with the poultry protein conversion industry about making food for human use, but also the co-products from that industry being utilized for animal foods. And, I partner with my wife, we share our lab here, and we do some physiology work, but we also want to expose the students to all aspects of the agriculture chain. So we've taken some projects that, you know, Eric helped help devise and, and think upon how can we take these co-products from the protein conversion industry that's geared toward human food and upcycle those to make them more applicable for the pet food and potentially the animal food industry.
Dr. Charles Starkey (00:05:56):
So that's really how we got started in this. And we've been doing it, I think almost five years now. So we've, we've got several projects we've done. We're up to almost 80 presentations by students at meetings. We've got a full processing plant with a working kitchen for research purposes. And of course, we've got live animal production barns as well. We don't just do poetry research in the lab. We're working with SW and beef and in some cases aquaculture. And so that's, we, we're looking at co-products for all those industries to try to apply.
Scott Sorrell (00:06:38):
All right. Very well,
Dr. Eric Altom (00:06:40):
Scott, one of the things that I found interesting is the flexibility of this program. You know, when we started some of this, we weren't sure how it was gonna work and what we would need to do. So they have teaching laboratories, small scale equipment small mixers, small product stuffers, and small scale that you could do multiple batches on the bench. Traditional bench, top work, small scale, small mixers, you know, five, 10 pounds at the most and up through using the processing facility and some of the research meat research capabilities to do hundred-pound batches of these components. And so one of the things I think that is important to understand is the flexibility of scale of what you want to do, how you want to do some initial evaluation versus through final proof of concept. And that's, what's allowed us to do so many different types of things on such a very, very rapid timeline. And I've been asked that question and I said, well, it's the flexibility, it's the students. It's the technology that's already there. And then, the willingness to adjust the project idea to the appropriate scale.
Scott Sorrell (00:08:06):
Mm-hmm
Dr. Charles Starkey (00:08:35):
Well, there there's a growing protein shortage for pets in the pet food industry side and proteins are getting very expensive. The fish mill has been high for several years. It's a great protein source, but with overfishing of certain areas and, and, and reduction in numbers, the fish mill went way up dried animal protein, such as pry by-product meal and, and pry meal, as well as meat bone meal are, are pretty good alternatives, but there's a lot of competition on the market. And the pet food industry is growing at a very rapid rate. There was an article just today that that last year they eclipsed the COVID the 2020 year, which wasn't estimated to have happened, but, they blew right by it and are continuing to at an astronomical rate. So from a pet food perspective, the protein supply shortages are, are a big deal.
Dr. Charles Starkey (00:09:36):
When we look on the other side at the production animal protein conversion industry, you know, in us, we we've grown up and changed culturally how we consume food. So we want to, we want to meet, you know, white meat off thirds, or a steak or a hamburger. We don't consume organ meat the way our ancestors did, you know, where we processed the whole animal at one time in other cultures, that's common still, but we've shot away from it for different reasons here. And so there's all these protein organ meats and things like Wheaton tips. When you go out to a restaurant, you get the mid joint and the drum, but there's, a piece missing from that. And that's a wing tip. And so, that market is usually pretty low value for the processing industry. We found in our lab, that it's a great basis to make our Petry products.
Dr. Charles Starkey (00:10:35):
So just taking, you know, proteins and, and pieces like that, that don't end up on the human menu while they may be exported for certain cultures and consumption other, other places. There's still a lot of that product available and it's available at a relatively low price. So the P industry and the, and the red meat processing industry can get higher values for those products just by realigning the direction more toward pet food. So that's what a lot of our work is, is how can we utilize these project products? How do they handle as far as functionality as an ingredient in treats or, or raw pet food or, or something like that? And trying to just put that early beginning product information is, these are some options to both those industries where they can both add value to their products.
Scott Sorrell (00:11:31):
Mm-Hmm,
Dr. Charles Starkey (00:11:52):
We've overcome most of them pretty rapidly. These products do have some bone-in, in some cases like the wing tip, they're very small bones and, in the large part, they're still collagen and, and cartilage involved, which is also comprised mainly of protein. So, you know, making sure we grind those small enough that it's not a health or safety concern to a pet is one area that we've made focused on to make sure that the product is below two millimeters. It meets all safety aspects. Another big issue that we ran into is liver. There is an export market for it. It's not consumed in great quantities in us, but both beef and chicken livers that we used. They L when gram and that liquid product a lot harder to incorporate into a, a pet food manufacturing, or a treat manufacturing process. So these technologies with the hydrocolloid and the added bonding of the encapsulated calcium lactate allowed us to put almost 40% liver into a mix and have it gel and bind like a, like a really good sausage product. And so that gives a lot more flexibility for use and functionality of a liquified product like that, that, that just wasn't there before.
Scott Sorrell (00:13:22):
Hmm. Interesting. Why don't we move into kind of the research now, can you kinda give us an overview, just kind of a top line of what the research that you're doing, and then once you hand it off to your students there to kind of give us a deeper dive into the specific research that each of them has done
Dr. Charles Starkey (00:13:40):
With, with me having an industry background, you know, and, and you guys know being an industry it's drilled in your head, how can we make money? How can we be innovative, come up with new ideas, and add revenue to our bottom line? And so just talking with Eric and some other people from, from again, the production industry, what are ways we can do that and get better at that? So, one of the big things that we wanted to do was how can we add value, to both sides of the equation. In the meantime, something that's very important to me here is to train students, and my wife and I, when we run our lab, we feel it's very, very important that the students, it, it's one thing to go watch chickens in a barn or, or go to the hog barn and, and, and learn the animal husbandry skills.
Dr. Charles Starkey (00:14:28):
But you have to know what the end point of that business is, and that's human and food. And then the co-products. So we've started devising these trials as ways to take, take co-products that are currently pretty low-value proteins and, and add value to them and make sure the functionality was somewhat acceptable for the pet food industry. And so there's a lot of things that have been overlooked, and they've been going to rendering, which is a great avenue for them, but they're valued at about 10 cents a pound at, at a maximum where we can convert these. And, and by adding a little bit of cost, our average pet tree in, in the, on, at the market survey level is $8 a pound. So we can add a couple of dollars and we still have a large volume of room to grow, to help recoup and achieve that revenue. And then both sides can share in better revenues overall. So that, that, and, and, and backing up the teaching, having these students go to meetings and present this data is really what the program was based on
Scott Sorrell (00:15:42):
Mm-hmm
Dr. Eric Altom (00:15:43):
And Scott. One of the things that, that I would add in, again, the strength of this program is the students get the exposure just like when we were in graduate school, all students help out on, on virtually all pro projects, whether it's their project or not. It does take a fair number of extra hands to do some of this type of work, but with Charles' program, they can go from the feed mill to the hatchery, to the barns, to the processing of human food, and then look at where these co-products can and should go. And in this case, we're gonna use 'em upcycle those into pet treats to finished product. So it is they understand the entire material stream of what they're doing, and at least being exposed to it from the feed mill, all the way to the kitchen counter either for human food, for the family, or these specialized treats, nutritious treats for the, for the path.
Dr. Eric Altom (00:16:52):
And that type of exposure at least gives all these students a very, very solid base understanding of the industry that they can build on. And again, as I say, these students push me with lots of questions, some of which I hadn't thought about before. So every time I'm around them, I'm writing down their questions, cuz I may not know the answer, but it does push me to go back and look. So this, the diversity of this program, teaching 'em how to do research teaching 'em how to do projects, but understand that entire supply line or continuum line that is the foundation for the animal nutrition industry, I think is a very unique aspect.
Scott Sorrell (00:17:33):
Mm-hmm
Justin Dunavant (00:17:54):
So I'm a food science student and therein, I kind of acted as a leader with my other food science student Jor, Hey Romero we've run two or three different experiments since the time that I've been here. What we're usually trying to do is trying to create a pet treat with these products in a way that a pet treat hasn't been created before. You know, we know that poultry byproduct meal can be used to create a chunk and form treat, but you don't see just ground up wingtip created into a pet treat. And so the research that we've been doing is we've been analyzing these pet treats through their chemical and physical properties, doing texture analysis, color analysis pH water activity, et cetera, just to see, you know, how well these treats are created using the method that we're using, how well they might compare to a treat that's similar in the market.
Scott Sorrell (00:18:54):
Okay. And then Josh what was your part of the program?
Justin Dunavant (00:19:01):
Yeah, so I'm more on the poultry science side. I'm not my degree's not going to be on the food science side. And a lot of my research is with Dr. Jessica more on some of the muscle biology physiology work and some of the stem cell research that we're doing. So I've always just been the helping hand, always going to the processing plant or the meat lab, helping generate products, helping collect data. But after a lab meeting one day Dr. Charles and I were sitting down and we were discussing trying to understand the business side of these projects, trying to understand more of the economics behind it, because a lot of times in like research and even in the production animals, when you're testing products or you're using products, the question always is, is this product feasible in the industry? Can I take this to a complex and can the complex use it?
Justin Dunavant (00:19:50):
So that's what we were trying to do with this on the business side. And that's the project I undertook can we use these products? Can we make the pet treats? And then what is it feasible? Could we even generate even our small processing facility? And that was just more of a hypothetical, more for the business analysis, but could we generate a small facility to make this pet treats? Could it be feasible? What kind of loan would we have to use? Do you need to take out how much money would we need to borrow? What could we sell these treats for how much value can we add to them? And then kind of like, what's a payoff period? How soon could we pay off this facility and start generating an income utilizing these products?
Scott Sorrell (00:20:32):
So share with us what, what kind of the findings were then, you know, in terms of feasibility and economics,
Justin Dunavant (00:20:40):
Well, it's not complete yet. We still have quite a bit of work to do. But what we're finding. So we did a market survey just trying to understand what is the average price, this similar type of treats they're selling for there. If you look at we've looked at several different stores, we've looked on online sources and they're selling on average for about $18 a pound. What we're finding is that based on some of the products that we use in my analysis, we can add just a few dollars worths of value to make a feasible product. And then if we hypothetically and this analysis could sell it for somewhere similar to that, you know, it could be fairly feasible and we could have a very quick turnaround to pay off any loan that we could, we would have to borrow for this type of analysis that we were looking at. Well, as I said, it's not complete yet. We still got a lot of work to do on my end, just to try to wrap up all these loose ends, but it looks very promising.
Scott Sorrell (00:21:34):
Okay.
Dr. Eric Altom (00:21:36):
Yeah. And that data was these guys won't brag on themselves. They're always kind of quiet, but both of them submitted abstracts and were presented. They presented their work at the most recent pet food forum held in Kansas City a few weeks ago. And those participants, know how competitive it is. There's only a set number of slots to be able to get students to be up there. Presenting was a true honor, I think for these young men and the testaments to the quality of work they've been doing. So both of 'em have been doing some really good work. I'm excited about this economic model. Cause quite honestly, it's a pretty good solid foundation for an initial business plan and business perspective. And that's kind of where he is taking this, I think is gonna be a good, interesting look into the feasibility of upcycling these components for more sustainable pet treats.
Scott Sorrell (00:22:39):
Mm-hmm
Justin Dunavant (00:22:52):
In terms of getting that information out? We are looking at actually publishing this information, actually going to a business journal being more of a science, more of a scientist. I don't have a lot of that business background. So it's been hard trying to look at a lot of the business literature, look at a lot of the business journals and understand how to format some of the data and the manuscript, but we are looking to hopefully sometime this year publish that work and get it out there in more of the business side and more of a business journal.
Scott Sorrell (00:23:20):
Mm-hmm
Justin Dunavant (00:23:40):
So the only, the only substrate that I have used since being a member of the Starkey lab has been wing tips. Coincidentally, I was at the meat lab whenever the Starkey lab was making treats out of the beef liver and beef heart, just as a student worker, I wasn't yet a member of the lab, but I know that we've done things similarly, we've done chicken paw chicken, liver, chicken heart. And have we done any beyond that?
Dr. Charles Starkey (00:24:08):
The, well, the beef products and Carcas frames
Dr. Eric Altom (00:24:12):
Mm-hmm
Dr. Charles Starkey (00:24:13):
Mm-hmm
Scott Sorrell (00:25:25):
Eric, could you give us some background on using the hydro coli technology?
Dr. Eric Altom (00:25:28):
Sure. so in this particular aspect, we used sodium ate and sodium imagination is blended into the meat mixture, so it could be properly hydrated, and then we need a calcium ion, and that calcium ion sodium alginate will provide what's called a cross-linkage. And you'll see, in some of the literature, they refer to it maybe as an egg crate linkage. And that's how, if you see a stack of different egg crates, they, the different pieces will blend. And, it is a protein restructuring component. Now, this technology's been utilized in human food preparation for decades but it's only primarily been used with stridden muscle. So, as you know, we're using more of these different types of protein. And so you'll hear me talk about the work that the team is doing more as a protein restructuring or protein structuring program because that's essentially what it is.
Dr. Eric Altom (00:26:33):
All the material, as Charles said is human edible, but it's probably not something that's in a traditional north American diet, but it's very, very good nutrient-rich amino acid, rich components. Now, when you have these calcium ions, as soon as the alginate and the ions come into connection, they create this linkage and what's referred to as a cold form irreversible set, which means that they will link and create these proteins linkages. But if that linkage is sheared, it won't repair itself. So we have taken, in this case, calcium lactate as the ion source and coded it with a shell, such that we can blend it into the meat batter without any additional capital expenditures such as calcium bass, and calcium sprays. And with this being able to blend that technology in we can get a consistent texture throughout an entire loaf, which can be very, very important to the end consumer.
Dr. Eric Altom (00:27:42):
And so it allows us to mix the components, get them into the final form that we want, and then we can control when that gel is gonna set. And when that protein linkage is gonna be one pretty interesting aspect is that this technology does bind some of the endogenous moisture. Now it's not gonna be like a sponge and soak up all the endogenous moisture as Charles said with the liver that liquefies, but it will bind some of the endogen moisture. So you can have a higher moisture product, but still, have the water activity that you need for a stable finished product. So it gives you some flexibility in processing and gives you some use to be able to utilize other components that you may not have been able to handle. And in most cases, it can certainly reduce or in some cases eliminate any type of special equipment cap X expenditures, cause it's, it's essentially mixing and then forming it into what you want your final form to be. And then you can either sell that product as a refrigerated product or you can take it through a smokehouse somehow and then cook that final product the way you want to. So that's a little bit about how the technology, but these guys have a wealth of information. They've already started publishing some articles but they have a wealth of information on details and the measures
Scott Sorrell (00:29:17):
Mm-hmm
Justin Dunavant (00:29:30):
I'll take it. So we have been using three different tests to characterize the texture of our treats, those being TPA, sheer force, and three-point bend. Three-point bend is kind of, as you expect it just how much this jerky treat would, how easily it would bend under pressure or break. If it comes out to be a more brittle product TPA, which gives us a wealth of information, six different attributes being hardness, cohesiveness, adhesiveness resilience, springiness, and ness, or chewiness, depending on what kind of product we're measuring and shear force, which shows the maximum amount of force it takes to share through a product. Just that's a good indicator is commonly used in meat processing for tenderness or toughness of a product. Those have been the three main analyses that we've used.
Scott Sorrell (00:30:27):
Okay. And do you have an idea of what kind of texture you're looking for, or is the answer? It depends right on, on the outcome you're looking for.
Justin Dunavant (00:30:35):
Yeah, it depends. So will you just reach in, so we just recently started a little survey that's kind of investigating that and something that I hadn't thought about is just how many different kinds of pet treats there are? You know, there are training treats, freeze, dried treats, biscuits chunked form, jerkies whole muscle jerkies and, you know, using different meats, they're fish, jerkies beef, jerkies pork, jerkies whatever. And so we're running these analyses on our treats to see what an acceptable range is, and that already exists in the market and we're doing that for color and probably chemistry further on down the line for these treats as well.
Scott Sorrell (00:31:19):
Okay. Mm-hmm
Justin Dunavant (00:31:32):
I don't have the data to say if it's desirable just yet. What we kind of have to pay attention to with regards to color is it's what more so what the customer of the pet treat would prefer as opposed to the consumer, the consumer would be a pet and the customer is who's buying that treat for those pets. And so we can assume that they want the color to be similar to the treats that are already on the market. If they're already buying those, we can assume that they're they want 'em to be similar. And so there is an equation it's called Delta E which shows the difference in color between different treats. We haven't yet done the Delta E between treats that already exist on the market and the treats that we have made. But we have done Delta E between treats that we have made using different concentrations of Algen, or we call it Algen.
Justin Dunavant (00:32:30):
Algen is just the combination of sodium alginate and encapsulated calcium lactate. And the Delta E whenever it is equal to or less than 10 shows that they are similar, it's perceptible to the human eye, but it would more or less be acceptable to a consumer if they were different from a Delta E of four or five, if it's below, if it's one to two, the consumer would have to look at it under, you know, a laboratory light kind of thing, to be able to see a difference and anything below that is imperceptible to the human eye. And so in our treatments, we've found that sodium imagination doesn't change the color of our trees in a significant way. To sway a consumer away or towards purchasing a product based on its color,
Scott Sorrell (00:33:21):
Mm-Hmm,
Dr. Eric Altom (00:33:31):
Yeah. So one of the great things, when I joined B Kim, is understanding the encapsulation application of encapsulation. And for many years, we've always tried to encapsulate and protect nutrients. And so, as you know, we do some things with horses and he buffering with encapsulated setting by carbonate dairy production and ruminate nutrition by getting nutrients through the Ru. So the animal can absorb it. And this scenario, what we're looking at is trying to control that process because again, the sodium alginate and the calcium are highly reactive. As soon as they come together, they're gonna form that jail. So some people may remember at science fairs, when we were certainly in elementary school, they would have a calcium bath set there in a fish tank and a large syringe, and the kids could squirt alginate into this calcium bath. And it would make these little gel worms and little squiggles that's exactly what happens.
Dr. Eric Altom (00:34:38):
However, once you share that it won't repair itself. So we needed a way to be able to mix these components into the meat batter, form the final treat in this case, or the final product, and then get that gel set. So I'm using utilize encapsulation to sequester that calcium from the alginate and control that process to get the release when we want it released to get that final gel set, you'll get some thickening with alginate, and it's been used as a thickening, a but to get that protein structure at the appropriate time, understanding shell composition, understanding the shell thickness, understanding the moisture, the pH of your meat batter the acidity as well. Those are the components of what will impact or release. So we're utilizing this microencapsulation as a processing aid to help us control the manufacturing of the product.
Dr. Eric Altom (00:35:49):
Otherwise, these things would just, they would set up in a mixer and you would have to start digging it out which your, your, your shift foremen, your line employees are gonna be very upset. Because if this stuff thickens and bricks up in that mixer, you may have to take that thing apart and pull those screws out. No one gonna be happy, but in this case, we can actually get those components mixed, get the product form, and then we can get the set. So it's a little different application in this scenario than, than what we've seen, maybe used by encapsulation, in other animal products,
Scott Sorrell (00:36:32):
Some of the substrates that you guys have talked about, the wing dips, and also the frames, you know, some product developers could be concerned with the amount of endogenous bone material in these raw materials. How do you guys address those potential problems or, or concerns?
Dr. Charles Starkey (00:36:51):
Yeah, Scott. So it's always a concern for four materials. That's at a large enough size that, that it could choke an animal or, or anything. And so that's, that's not acceptable in a final product form. The industry incorporates a lot of technologies, including x-ray and other light another light of vis visualization technologies to pick up material. And so what we're doing is grinding it fine enough that we're below the safe threshold of fewer than two millimeters. And the thing, the thing about bone is bone is made of protein. All of the minerals come on second as a secondary to form the structure. So bone is very high in protein. So it aids in this with the Hydroco and the gelling and everything as well. So we're able to capture these nutrients, we're grinding them small enough to ensure safety, and we're getting good proteins from the bone, as well as, some good mineral content in these treats.
Scott Sorrell (00:37:59):
Yeah. And you mentioned collagen and cartilage before. I you've gotta believe that there's some value in that as well.
Dr. Charles Starkey (00:38:06):
No, yes, that's absolute. That's part of the total protein fraction. And while it may not be appealing for us to chew on it, dogs don't mind it at all, especially when we grind it, we mix it the way we've been doing
Scott Sorrell (00:38:21):
Mm-hmm
Dr. Charles Starkey (00:38:39):
Well, then, the one reason is jerky treats are, are a large percentage of the total treat market. So we wanted to mimic some things that were already out there. Then, the second point is it's easy for us. We take the material, grind, incorporate the functional technologies and allow the gel to happen. And we do that. Then we shove it like a sausage, and that allows us to take a lot of slices, to get a lot of replications for our measurements. So from a scientific standpoint, the ease of sampling and analysis and, and repeatability, we, we can capture all that easily. So some of it's a functionality of what's easy for us to test and analyze the lab mm-hmm
Dr. Charles Starkey (00:40:05):
Mm-hmm
Scott Sorrell (00:40:06):
And you mentioned there's you know, a lot of jerky-type products out there on the market today, Justin during your evaluation, did you take a look at how the cost of how products are currently made compares to the cost of making 'em with this technology and with these different substrates
Justin Dunavant (00:40:24):
Only just kind of looked at it from these types of products. I've not spent any too much time looking at, like, studying, like the differences in like other products. Cause I've just been more focusing on some of the stuff that we've been using and, but you've
Dr. Charles Starkey (00:40:39):
Looked at the surveys of the tree prices.
Justin Dunavant (00:40:42):
Yeah. I mean, yeah. I've looked at the prices.
Dr. Eric Altom (00:40:47):
Yeah. What was your average that you found, do you remember? I know it was
Justin Dunavant (00:40:51):
Yeah. About $18 a pound
Dr. Eric Altom (00:40:54):
$18, man. Yeah.
Scott Sorrell (00:40:56):
Yeah.
Dr. Eric Altom (00:40:56):
All right. I need, I need a jerky shooter that's for sure. Yeah,
Justin Dunavant (00:41:00):
But that's also, and that's just looking at the jerky style from poultry. Okay. I, I made sure that it wasn't incorporating the beef pork. It was just from poultry and it was also making sure it wasn't a whole muscle.
Dr. Eric Altom (00:41:15):
Okay.
Justin Dunavant (00:41:15):
Do you know how sometimes you can buy like the tender, like the tender wine jerky strips? So I made sure that the analysis I was looking at reflected what we were creating, so that way it was a very good representation.
Scott Sorrell (00:41:29):
Okay. Can you give us an overview of the raw ingredients that they're using today? You mentioned you were making sure that it wasn't a whole muscle. Can you kind of give us an idea of what's currently being used today?
Justin Dunavant (00:41:41):
Well, and just looking at some of the packagings, sometimes they clearly don't say, they'll just say like poultry products or poultry co-products they don't specify what type of co-product or if they're using any types of muscle in there at all, they don't specify unless they specifically want to, like, if it is like a Tenderloin strip, they will say made from whole chicken tenderloins or whole breast meat. So on the packaging, it sometimes doesn't clearly state what they're using, unless they're marketing for that specific type of product they're using.
Scott Sorrell (00:42:14):
Yeah. Eric, you had a comment you wanted to make.
Dr. Eric Altom (00:42:19):
Well, I was just, I thought it was a very good idea cuz when you start looking at the pet treat market it's very, very diversified. So you can have some of the pet treats as Josh just said, that may just say made from poultry byproducts or poultry co-products then you can also have some very specialized treats. So if a dog may have, in this case, I'll talk about dogs, but it, it exists for cats as well say they have a certain food allergy to a protein. And so they can't, they can't consume chicken proteins, well, having them on a prescription, single source protein, single source, carbohydrate diet, and then giving them a chicken treat is not what your veterinarian's gonna want to do. So you will find things such as bison Buffalo and venison salmon. Some vegetarian and vegan treats are on the market as well.
Dr. Eric Altom (00:43:30):
So when you start, I think Josh has done a great job and the team did a great job when they started saying, this is what we need to do to find for so comparison what we're gonna include, but also what do we have to include and why? Because of the treatment market right now, the last data that I saw was an annual growth of about 12.5, 12.8% annually just astronomical growth in this area. So I think it's a very economically beneficial program for pet companies to look at as an adjacent to their, to their base nutrition lines. And I think this team's coming up with some really neat ways for them to be able to do that fairly easily, but it's, you can find proteins from all kinds of sources out there in the marketplace right now.
Scott Sorrell (00:44:27):
Mm-hmm
Dr. Charles Starkey (00:44:42):
Yeah, so, Scott, we have not, and actually, that's gonna be part of Justin's master's project that we're gonna initiate this summer. Currently, we've been looking at just very early product development, so not adding any stabilizer-type ingredients to it at this time, but part of Justin's work's gonna be going forward. We're gonna do stabilization and, and measure qualities off that as well as antimicrobial incorporation, some other functional ingredients that have antimicrobial properties and we will be looking more at shelf life over time with those products. One of my colleagues, Dr. Jason Sawyer did some shelf life with packaged individual slices of these treats and looked at color change over time, as well as some oxidated properties over time in that study with no added stabilization at all. He, easily made it up to almost two weeks, 21 days, and then just naturally the product oxidizes without, any stabilizers in it in that time. So the next step on Justin's project is gonna look at that stabilization and, and the quality over time, more for shelf life
Scott Sorrell (00:46:06):
Mm-hmm
Dr. Charles Starkey (00:46:26):
Yeah. so currently Justin talked about, we're doing some general survey just to get an idea of the range of the values for the measurements we've set up to take on our product. What is the range of different products out on the market? And, and I think it was a little overwhelming in the beginning because there are so many different types of treats. So we segmented them into about six different similar areas and got multiple treats from each of those and started performing these tests. So some of the future comparisons will be against that data of what's already on the market. So that's one end is what is the quality, you know, the chemical and the physiochemical properties of what's on the market. The second one that we're getting excited about, I've got a couple of other students here. They aren't with us today, but they're going to start looking at some of the consumer sensory sides of it.
Dr. Charles Starkey (00:47:26):
So we all know that it's the consumer who buys the pet tree. If it tastes okay, the dog usually is gonna eat about anything, right? They, they just, they like that affection. It's that attention they get when you're handing them a treat it's rewarding of good behavior. So it's the dog's more about the social interaction with its own or when it takes the treat. So it's the consumer, you have to target from a purchasing standpoint. So we've got some consumer purchase intent surveys where we'll put treats out in front of 'em and say, you know, which would be your preference. And, and what are your, what are your reasonings behind that? And we've got a, I've got a sensory colleague Dr. Sun Cho here that we're gonna do some of that work with in addition, we're gonna go forward with some more looking at the sensory chemicals.
Dr. Charles Starkey (00:48:19):
So through an Enos and E so we'll do that, both on the products on the market, as well as look at the comparison to products we're manufacturing. And the whole goal is to say what's out there. What is perception? And, and the E knows will be very good. We're hoping to align that to some palatability test for dogs, the prefer by the dog themselves. But it also gives us a perception of we, we have a century panel come through. We can correlate that century panel data to this actual analysis of chemical composition and see what's preferred by the end purchaser of the product. Mm-Hmm
Dr. Eric Altom (00:49:02):
Dr. Charles Starkey (00:50:44):
Well, we were going over different opportunities both on the human and the animal side. And so one of the things we did is we, we went, we got ahold of a bunch of the co-products that we used. So wing tips, paws, liver, kidneys different organs, pig, ears, cattle feet, not, not the hos, but just the toes. And there are all of these interesting products. What's interesting too, is we bought all those from human food suppliers, so different Mar cultural markets. We went and shopped and got these products that are used for human food. So just explain about the different opportunities out there of these co-products, whether we're going human or pet food with them. But then just for fun, we set up a little site evaluation test, and we got a lot of different human food products and a lot of different pet treat products.
Dr. Charles Starkey (00:51:42):
And then some that are labeled for either, and we numbered them all and had the, had the group go through and fill out a questionnaire of, is it human or is it animal? And, and I'm gonna have to tell on Eric that he didn't miss. He didn't miss one. There is a pet treat on the market that is apple and cheddar flavored. And it is manufactured to look identical to a traditional fig new the shape, the size, everything is identical. And so we had to put that in there as a ring, cuz that's about the only thing I knew I could get Eric on. So he, he, he, it was a fair test. I know we'll argue that, but just different things. We took potted meat, we took spam and we cut the spam to look like the pet tree next to it.
Dr. Charles Starkey (00:52:33):
So some of these things, a lot of people missed several of them. Beef jerky sticks or meat sticks that were made for dogs look identical to ones made for humans. And so as these pets become more of our family and our interactions with them go forward, the demand for humans, such as pet food and pet treats, is a lot of what's pushing the market. So it's essential. You know, the two things we're trying to do is take co-products that are human food grade, as much as possible and incorporate those just for health reasons. And they, we know they're processed you know, in a, in a wholesome fashion and then also to target where the market's going, where humans want their dogs to be eating food that looks and, and smells and very similar to what they're consuming. So we're trying to target that, that avenue as well.
Dr. Eric Altom (00:53:33):
And as we see the population around the world we know that spending time with animals makes us better people. And if there's anything good, that's come out of this global pandemic people brought more pets into their homes. They are not giving those pets up. Now that, you know, we're, we're traveling or trying to get back to a new normal, those animals were beneficial to them from a, a, an emotional, a mental, a psychological aspect. When we were shut down and kind of, kind of staying put staying in place. So pet ownership is gonna grow because we know pets make us better people. However, we've got population growth around the world, and pets and humans are gonna be competing for this protein, and amino acid choice. And we're gonna have to find new and different ways that I can provide something for the pet parent that looks like meat, as well as something for the pet that is nutritionally complete for what they know and appropriate, but they're not competing for the same sources.
Dr. Eric Altom (00:54:52):
So I think looking at these whole animal opportunities, looking at these co-products understanding how the nutrition is there. It's its high-quality nutrition, and how to effectively and easily from a manufacturing standpoint, transformed these proteins into usable. Treats is really where I think some of the future's gonna be this program to me, I think is Leonard Leonardo DaVinci, but I'll let Josh, you know, fact check me on it. He said we have to understand the science of art and the art of science. And there is science here, but there's also some art that we're still trying to figure out what's the right texture. What's the right texture based on life stage or lifestyle? Is there a different texture that's needed for different breed sizes? I know with my Labradors texture, doesn't matter, you know, they crunch crack and swallow and that's it.
Dr. Eric Altom (00:55:56):
But for my mother, Boston may be a little different. So understanding there's still a tremendous amount of work. I, think's gonna be exciting trying to figure out some of this art, but also how are we gonna take care of both people and their pets going for the next 20 years or more? It's pretty exciting to me. Mm-hmm
Scott Sorrell (00:56:57):
Yeah. Interesting story. Eric gentlemen, we've covered a lot in today's conversation. Are there any rocks that we left unturned that we ought to turn over?
Dr. Eric Altom (00:57:06):
Mm-hmm
Dr. Charles Starkey (00:57:07):
Just, to follow up with what Eric just said. This program's continuing to grow, we've got over any, at any point, we've got 20 to 30 students in our lab. Again, some of them like Josh is working more on fundamental physiology research. Some are more on feed manufacturing, and then like, like Justin, are going the food science route. But we, we make all of them learn some aspects of all the different areas because I think it makes them more complete as students. And, and when they go out in the industry when those conversations occur, they have an understanding of what's being discussed. So we're gonna continue to grow this program and work on the art from the sensory and consumer side, but there's a lot more science. Unfortunately one of our food science students has just, started his internship at Smithfield today Romero was not able to join us, but his project is gonna be looking at a lot of different and new and innovative protein sources.
Dr. Charles Starkey (00:58:17):
So things like, well, of course, soy protein will be part of the mix as a standard, but P proteins. Some, some fish protein meals that we we've acquired insect proteins, and a lot of these other new and innovative proteins that we want know more about the functionality. And historically we would choose different Hydroco for say, plant or vegetable proteins that seem to have better efficacy with those products versus, our animal source proteins. But we're gonna look at different. Hydro is among both and try to determine what is the best fit. Where do we get the best gelling and texture properties out with his master thesis, that'll start up when he returns in the fall, after his internship? So that's kinda what the next steps are driving home, the sensory and consumer side, as well as looking at some of these different, innovative proteins that are being viewed by pet food companies and, and human food companies as well out
Justin Dunavant (00:59:20):
There
Scott Sorrell (00:59:22):
Very well. Thank you for that. Charles, it is the last call. I just heard him call it. So what I'd like you guys to do in wrapping up, I'm gonna ask something different of the students I'd like to have you guys give us kind of an idea of what your future looks like, where you're headed and what do you hope to, to do in, in, very shortly. And then Charles, I know you just touched on it, but I'd like to kind of just expound a little bit more in terms of what are the next steps, for this project. And, are there any roles that processors' pet food companies can or should play in future development Eric, I'll ask you the same thing. So Justin, why don't we start with you?
Justin Dunavant (01:00:05):
My future has not been set in stone. I think a lot of students feel that way, but you know, I do have a passion for meat science and pet food specifically. I've done an internship with P pride, the wet pet food department. I'm, you know, rendering sounds cool to me protein conversion in all ways, but I'm also just recently started kind of pursuing my interest in statistics. I'm right now taking a SAS or SAS programming course in the fall. I'm gonna be taking data analysis for crop, soil, and animal science. I know that the U S D a has an agricultural statistics service. That's interesting to me. I didn't get the chance to talk to them at I P P E I would've liked to. But I'm just, you know, I'm still kind of open to all that. If I do want to work in statistics, I would like to work for one of these companies. You know, that still brings me back to my education and meat science, where I can still apply that for food science. Like I, here I am now.
Scott Sorrell (01:01:10):
Yeah. Well, thank you, Justin, no matter what you decide to do, I'm sure you'll be very successful. Josh, why don't we flip it over to you?
Justin Dunavant (01:01:18):
Sure. so I am preparing to graduate this August. I made some really good connections at the trade show earlier this year at the international poultry international products and processing expo. But I also recently, when we were in Kansas City made some great connections at the pet food forum. So I've been following up on a lot of those connections and been talking to some people applying for jobs. So ideally my future looks like maybe getting into the industry, maybe either the technical service side, maybe product development side, whether that be on the poultry side or maybe even on the pet side. So that's where I'm kind of looking right now
Scott Sorrell (01:01:54):
Very well. Well, the same goes for you. I'm sure you have a bright future ahead of you. And I appreciate you spending some time with us today. Eric, why don't you give us some, of your thoughts on what the future of this project is?
Dr. Eric Altom (01:02:08):
Well, I can tell you the future of this project is pretty strong. I think there are a lot of opportunities for processors and pet food companies to connect with Charles specifically on some ideas. Again, I think the flexibility of going literally from small-scale bench aspects, all the way up to larger-scale proof of concept, before you go into your production environment, that flexibility doesn't exist at a lot of companies. So leveraging his team and the team's passion to address some of these questions is, is gonna be, a true asset to a lot of companies in the industry, whether poultry processing, trying to find a home for some of these types of materials, or a pet food company, trying to innovate and develop some of the baseline knowledge. So as far as where we're headed, I mean, as Charles I'm trying to hang on as best I can.
Dr. Eric Altom (01:03:06):
These students are always thinking they're always pushing me. We have a deal that they read an article, they send me a PDF, so I can read it and try to keep up with them. I'm excited about what they're doing. And I'm very excited to see what, where these young men are gonna go and a lot of other students as well coming outta this program. So I think the future's very, very, very bright. There's probably too much work as always to get done. So we just start like all research programs. You gotta eat the elephant one bite at a time. So that's where I've been trying to help Charles be an extra set of hands and a technical asset for him as well. Yeah,
Scott Sorrell (01:03:48):
Well said Eric Charles's final words.
Dr. Charles Starkey (01:03:51):
Yeah. I just, you know, my job here at the university to me is twofold. It's to try to help these students get a base of knowledge that will help them Excel in the industry, cuz this is our future we're working with right now, and show them about the different aspects. A lot of people, you know, it's not just in the barn or in the processing plant, there's, there's the pet food side. There is the marketing side, there's the science side of, of our industry as well. And then the second part is to serve the industry stakeholders who give so much back to us at university. And so to me, this is a, a great blend between helping pet food companies, not only having students prepared, they can enter their workforce for pet food, which is, which is a struggle right now for a lot of pet food companies, but also the protein conversion industry and animal production industry to assist them in, in helping get more value for their product. And so that, that's what this whole program was built upon. And I, I hope we're being successful. And I think we've got a lot more years of projects to work on going.
Scott Sorrell (01:05:03):
Yep, absolutely. Gentlemen, this has been a lot of fun. I enjoyed it. You know, enjoyed hearing about your research about your future insights into where this project's going. You know, with students like you've got there Charles the two that you've got here and the ones you have that, that you weren't able to join us today, you know, the future's in good hands for, for the industry. So I, I, I appreciate you and I appreciate your students. So thank you very much for joining us today. Also want to thank our loyal listeners as always stopping by here. Once again, it's a real science exchange, hope you learned something and hope you had fun. Hope to see you next time here, at the real science exchange, where it's always a happy hour and you're always among friends.
Speaker 5 (01:05:44):
We'd love to hear your comments or ideas for topics and guests. So please reach out via email to anhmarketing@balchem.com with any suggestions. And we'll work hard to add them to the schedule. Don't forget to leave a five-star rating on your way out. You can request your real science exchange. T-Shirt in just a few easy steps, just like, or subscribe to the real science exchange and send us a screenshot along with your address and t-shirt size to anhmarketing@balchem.com. Balchem's real science lecture series of webinars continues with ruminant-focused topics on the first Tuesday of every month. Monogastric-focused topics on the second Tuesday of each month and quarterly topics for the companion animal segment visit balchem.com/real science to see the latest schedule and to register for upcoming webinars.