Joining the pubcast to discuss insect protein as an alternative for the future is atharina Unger and Dr. Pratibha Yadav.
Guests: Katharina Unger & Dr. Pratibha Yadav
Joining the pubcast to discuss insect protein as an alternative for the future is Katharina Unger and Dr. Pratibha Yadav.
Unger is the CEO and founder of LIVIN Farms and an expert in edible insects and food innovation. She led the conversation by introducing her background and briefly mentioning the transformation of using insects as food protein. 8:35
Unger said she started questioning early in her career the required resources needed to produce livestock at a larger scale. After many years of research, carbon emissions studies and searching, an additive that can grow protein on the smallest possible footprint came to the forefront; insect protein. 9:41
Unger mentioned insect protein is highly digestible and for animals has an attractive taste. In addition, the environmental impacts of turning waste into protein is an effective organic byproduct. 11:05
Dr. Yadav discussed how the opportunity to utilize the black soldier fly was a decision based on its opportunity to offer low quality substrates and synthesize biomolecules into amino acids quickly. 19:30
While LIVIN Farms continues to have projects in Europe, Unger mentioned the team also does additional research in other regions which allows a wide variety of demographics to study when analyzing substrates and improvement factors. 23:17
Dr. Yadav said byproducts are already there for certain insect substrates and byproducts. In fact, she went on to say it’s a practical option as livestock production systems can be fed insects by crushing, mixing or distributing them as a way to save on costs and processing fees as well. 32:52
While the entire insect larva process is vertical farming, Unger mentioned from the start of production to the automated warehouse and then into the two layer systems, they are never dependent on the soil. 39:10
In an effort to produce with the smallest possible footprint, the input substrate must have an adequate amount of protein, fat and carbohydrates during the nutrient composition, Dr. Yadav mentioned. 41:43
Wrapping up the conversation, Unger summarized the visionary work being done with insects as protein alternatives and restated the value the resource has on the planet's ability to secure the food system and provide indefinite solutions for the future. 1:07:25
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Scott (00:00:08):
Good evening everyone, and welcome to the Real Science Exchange, the pudcast we're leading scientists and industry professionals meet over a few drinks to discuss the latest ideas and trends in animal agriculture. Hi, I'm Scott Sorrell. I'll be your host here tonight at Real Science Exchange, and we're here to discuss something new and an exciting alternative for the future. And that's Insect Protein. Tonight we'll discuss how we can use insects to turn waste into protein. And we're gonna be doing that with a couple leading experts on the topic. I'd first like, though, to introduce Katharina. She's the CEO and founder of Live-In Farms, a leading company in the field of edible insects and Novel Food Innovations. So welcome Katharina. Good to see you again. Hi,
Katharina (00:00:53):
Scott. Thanks for having me on the show.
Scott (00:00:56):
Ah, you're very welcome. Hey, I wanted to share a real quick story about how you and I first met, and this goes back to last November at the Euro tier. One of our colleagues, he works, his name's Eric Schwabe, works for a Vita Plus in Wisconsin. He came by our booth and he said, and we were talking about the webinar. He says, “I just met this young lady. You gotta go talk to her. You gotta put her on the webinar”. And so it was shortly after that I hunted you down. So anyway, glad to have you. I'm glad Eric pointed us out to you because it was a very exciting webinar that we had just I think it was in January.
Katharina (00:01:35):
Glad you did. Thanks for having me.
Scott (00:01:36):
Yeah, yeah. You're very welcome. As is the custom, this is a pubcast and we are in a virtual pub Katharina, what are you drinking tonight?
Katharina (00:01:45):
I'm drinking coffee, in fact. So out of our LIVIN Farms mug and I just told the story earlier that Vienna is a great coffee town, so if you ever get to visit, we're the most livable city in the world or so they claim. It's a beautiful city. And we drink a lot of coffee here in all kinds of forms, shapes and sizes. And also our insects love to eat a part of the coffee. So the spent coffee grounds can be included in the insect diet, at least up to about 10%, not usually more than that. So yeah, every now and then we use our spent coffee here from drinking also for all sorts of tests.
Scott (00:02:30):
Very well, well, thank you for that story. And I see you brought a guest with you this evening. Would you mind introducing your guest for us?
Katharina (00:02:36):
Yes. So I brought my colleague Pratibha Yadav, Dr. Pratibha. She's our head of entomology. She worked around the world with insects, with all kinds of insects, and she's with us for a couple of years now and leading our research and development in the biology field.
Scott (00:02:57):
All right, cool. Pratibha. So in the theme of the pop, what are you, what are you drinking tonight? What's in your glass?
Prathiba (00:03:06):
Since it's a pubcast, I'm drinking a beer. It's one of the I think second largest brewery in Vienna for beer called Hundred Roman. And continuing on what Katrina said, I also thought it would be a super cool idea to drink something whose byproduct can be consumed by our black soldier larvae spent grain, which is like the end product of beer brewing is a really good feed substrate for Black Soldier Fly larvae.
Scott (00:03:39):
Ah, cool. You know, I was reading your bio and I was found it to be very interesting. You worked with, was it insect robots? And then you learned to control the swarms of Desert Locust. What, what can you tell me about that?
Prathiba (00:03:56):
Yes. So, so for my PhD, I was still in basic entomology. I was exploring like, the parasitic-like behavior in terms of where do they lay eggs. But towards the end of it, I was really fascinated by insect inspired robotics, and that's where I switched the field and got into programming and algorithm development. And for my postdoc in Israel, I was working with Desert Locust and I was working with a team of engineers who were actually designing the robot. And the biologist side of it was to develop the algorithm to control these robots so that eventually we would release these robots in the swarm of a natural swarm of Desert Locust, and then they would manipulate the whole swamp to go away from the fields, maybe towards the Mediterranean and just drown there. And that maybe a technological approach to protect crops from Desert Locust.
Scott (00:04:56):
Wow. And is it gonna work?
Prathiba (00:04:59):
Mm, it's still work in progress. Okay. I searched the field for a more faster impactful field and also accelerated the covid accelerated. But yes, the project is still going ongoing. And we will wait and see. It's a bit ambitious because it's not so easy to manipulate a natural behavior of insects.
Scott (00:05:24):
Yeah. Yep. Yep. I understand. Well, and finally, I'm excited to welcome back a good friend and knowledgeable co-host in the field of protein, and that's Dr. Ryan Ordway from the Balchem team. Ryan, welcome back to the pub.
Ryan (00:05:37):
Hey, thanks, Scott. Good to be here.
Scott (00:05:39):
Yeah. So what's in your glass tonight?
Ryan (00:05:42):
I am drinking. I have gotten turned on to high end rums about a year ago, I think I've told you. And I just found one this weekend that is from a, it's a Caribbean rum, but it's actually from a distillery in Fredericksburg, Virginia.
Scott (00:06:01):
Oh, very nice.
Ryan (00:06:01):
So, Virginia's my favorite state in the country. I've been to most of the states, and it's not my home state, but it's still one of my favorites. Yeah. And thought I would try it. So it's pretty
Scott (00:06:14):
Good deal. Well, in honor of our topic tonight, I'm having what we call a grasshopper. If, for the listeners out there, if you've not ever had one, it's made with cocoa cream and cream dement, and a little bit of half and half. So it's quite heavy. It's quite green, but it is tasty. So you know, in honor of the theme tonight, here's to a great podcast. Cheers. Cheers.
Ryan (00:06:43):
Cheers.
Katharina (00:06:43):
Cheers.
Speaker 5 (00:06:45):
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Scott (00:07:19):
All right. So Katharinaina, back in January, you had a great webinar. Really enjoyed that one. And you shared some innovative ways that we can utilize insect protein for use to be sustainable for people and animals. Can you start off by telling us a little bit about yourself and how'd you get started in the insect protein business?
Katharina (00:07:41):
Sure. So my personal background is in product development. So I've been around the world working in developing consumer electronics products, medical products, down to actually cars and so on for the consumer space. But my personal background, my family background is actually in farming. So I grew up on an organic farm in the southeast of Austria. My grandfather was a miller's man, so I grew up in the miller's house. So the production of food, the rearing of animals of livestock is something close to my heart. So I decided to go back to that topic even more so when I ended up working in Hong Kong at a point. And I felt I had the abundance of food you know, in front of me. But at the same time, I couldn't see any spot where that actually comes from and how it is grown.
Katharina (00:08:39):
So I started to investigate how do we actually produce livestock on a larger scale. What does it mean in terms of resources? And then ended up with the topic of livestock feed where we do actually spend most of the resources and where also a lot of carbon emissions, of course come to play, come into play. So that's where we can have a real positive impact with insects. And so, yes, that was my, my journey or my start, the start of my journey to, to find out how we could grow protein on the smallest possible footprint. And I think until this day and the acceleration of this insect industry kind of proves that the insect can be a very good option for that.
Scott (00:09:29):
Okay. So that's, that's kind of the premise. You wanna do it on the smallest footprint. What are some other advantages? Why insect protein? And does the world really need another protein? Right?
Katharina (00:09:41):
Yes. I think the interesting thing is really that the discussion about insects and the inclusion of insect protein in foods as well as feeds has changed quite a bit in the past 10 years since I'm in the field. So, very early on, it was claimed to be, okay, the next meat, you know, the next thing that we're gonna, that we're gonna eat, we will have to eat insects, was quite dramatic actually. And, since there's so many plant-based alternatives as well out there in the marketplace it has shifted more from this quite food-centric approach to a systematic approach of, okay, what kind of impact can we have if we feed insect protein to animals? Where does it have benefits there? And it does have grand benefits if we think of it as an animal protein that is digestible, that is very well digestible, that is very very well to be eaten.
Katharina (00:10:42):
So animals just love it. It it attracts also, you know, the gusto as we say in Europe. So the taste, you know, they, they just love to eat more of it as well. And of course the environmental impact is great. So we say we make waste to protein factories. So what we offer to our customers that are often coming from food and feed processing industry is that we set up factories for them that process as much as possible the waste that occurs in their production sites. So for example potato based wastes, bread wastes, depending on the type of production it is and feeds it to insect larva. So in that way, we can feed real organic byproducts that oftentimes don't have a market right now, or that are a loss in term, in terms of financials for our customers into protein and into revenue again, and into a great product that can help livestock as well as pets grow really well.
Ryan (00:11:52):
No, I was just gonna ask Katharina, the I think you had mentioned in your webinar about, you know, the, the insect the Black Soldier Flies can only live really in more warmer climates, but if you're farming them, you can basically put these anywhere in the world, correct?
Katharina (00:12:11):
That is correct. That is correct. It's even more beneficial, to be honest, to grow them in colder climates. That's kind of a juxtaposition because we always think that in warmer climates where they actually can thrive naturally, it would maybe make more sense. However, if we think of dense growing environments where the insects live in production units that are the size of a, a pellet, the size of a, you know, pellet sized tray, for example. They live there in great density, so they produce a lot of heat. So actually one of the largest topics in insect production is the ventilation of those insect production units to actually draw off heat and cool the systems. So actually there we have a benefit of growing them in more northern regions where it's colder outside. So we need actually less energy to cool down the systems. Plus we have a higher biosecurity if you want because if insects ever are released into the wild, or if that happens to be released for whatever reason into the wild, they actually cannot survive. They won't survive the winters in more northern regions.
Ryan (00:13:28):
Oh, that's pretty fascinating. Are you able, so a long eye line, are you able to sort of in dairy production where they're capturing methane, are you able to sort of waste, is there any generation that you could get off of, the heat that's coming off of them? In terms of energy generation.
Katharina (00:13:47):
Yes, there is a lot of way to, to recycle heat streams to recycle energies, especially when we think of a co-location model as to say. So where we put insect rearing facilities next to the sites where wastes are produced, there's typically heat or you know, energy produced quite sustainably on site or that we can source in a sustainable way into insect production factories right next by and use that energy also in the system itself. What we, for example, implemented here in our factory, in our demonstration factory in Vienna, is a system where we can take the moisture that comes out in the drying process of the insect and recycle that moisture, that water back into the system because you need to rear them at a slightly higher ambient moisture. But we're really only at the beginning right now even though this industry is industrializing, you know, we see the first production sites we're gonna put a lot of factories out there for, for the carbon emission saving technology of insect production. However, there's so much more to be made better and to be improved. .
Scott (00:15:10):
Thanks. No, that's all right. Right, Well, I'm just curious, you, we were talking about water. How water intensive is insect raising?
Katharina (00:15:23):
Well, I think Pratibha can talk about that fact because most of the water is actually in the feed.
Prathiba (00:15:31):
Yeah. I mean, the feed is like insects, like all other living organisms, almost like 70% water. And they need feed also around that range. Of course, the feed consumption changes based on how moist the feed is, but then that also is intertwined with how much nutrients. So the more moisture you have, the more water you have, the less nutrient density you have in the given quantity of feed, and vice versa, if the moisture is less, the more nutrients are there, but probably the consumption will be a bit less because it gets dried quite faster. So, but you still try to maintain like 72-75% of your feed should be water. And not all of this water is being consumed by the larva in the rearing process, but a lot of it is lost as metabolic heat and then lost as moisture. So almost 70% of the input feed is water, and out of which, again, a high percentage is lost in metabolic heat generation through water. And the water activity also is tied with ammonia, so ammonia production in the rearing. So the water footprint is significant, but would it still be significantly lower than other livestock farming?
Katharina (00:16:52):
Also, maybe another point on another point maybe to add there is that we do have a lot of water in the waste sources that we typically see coming in from our customers site. So what happens is we have, we call it bio feasibility, so customers send us their materials and then we test it, we include it in the insect diet, we formulate feeds, feed recipes in order to grow them most efficiently. And we did have previous bio feasibilities where big manufacturers of food and feed sent us materials that come out so moist from their process that in fact, it becomes a huge issue to dispose of this as a waste because it is a huge financial cost to transport this water around. And it is at the same time a huge cost to dry it down.
Katharina (00:17:50):
So the energy cost of drying down material and then using it as a compost, for example, composer or fertilizer it's just way too costly. There's way too much energy involved in this process. So what we did for that project, for example, was with insect bioconversion, we could naturally dry down the material. So the material came in at 80% moisture content. And at the end of the process, we have larva that come out of the process. Of course, they have absorbed, they have metabolized the water. Of course, there's evaporation in the process as well. But then, the substrate comes out at around 50% moisture. And then it's much easier to be treated and it actually goes on as a fertilizer product. Then, besides the main product, which is the protein and the fats that come from the insect.
Scott (00:18:47):
Hmm.
Katharina (00:18:48):
We use a chronological dryer, so to say.
Scott (00:18:51):
Okay, cool. I'm sure Ryan's gonna have a lot of questions related to the feed stuff as he is a nutritionist, but before we move on to that, I had a real quick question. So you guys are using the Black Soldier Fly, I know that there are other insects being utilized for this purpose. Can you give me an idea of why you selected the Black Soldier Fly and how it might be better than some of the other alternatives? What are some of the advantages to some of the alternatives that's being looked at?
Katharina (00:19:18):
Good point. Prathiba, want to take that?
Prathiba (00:19:21):
Yeah. I think the biggest point that works in favor of Black Soldier Flies or why we chose Black Soldier Flies was the ability of the larvae. Basically, the other insects are quite limited in what they can take as input and converted into high value protein compared to Black Soldier larvae, which are kind of vociferous and can consume a huge range of low quality substrates and then synthesize biomolecules and convert them into amino acids and then high value proteins. And that is the biggest deciding factor. And then comes the secondary points of their biology in terms of reproductive cycle, the lifespan, the turnover of cycles at how many, how fast they reproduce the rearing period that each larva can keep consuming the feed for almost two weeks. So you don't need to put in more animals to consume the waste, whereas the same set of animals can keep consuming feed for two weeks and convert your waste into protein. So, their lifespan, their reproductive cycle, and the fact that they can eat such a wide range of substrates, which range from low nutrient quality to high nutrient quality, and it still convert them all into a high quality product. These are the two main critical factors in picking Black Soldier larvae over others.
Scott (00:20:52):
So, can you talk a little bit about what are some of the substrates that you guys typically use or that you typically work with? What are some of the waste streams? I know you don't like to talk about waste streams in Europe, but or side streams, I think you call them.
Prathiba (00:21:07):
Yes. I mean, in you, there are also restrictions in terms of what you can feed the insects as they're also considered livestock. But that's why we are limited in what we can, but that does not mean we are limited by what Black Soldier Fly larvae we can consume. So, the answer to this question actually varies depending on where, which part of the world we are talking about. Because in certain parts where there are no such restrictions, you, we know that Black Soldier larvae we can consume even animal manure and things which are actually legally not permitted in other parts of the world. They are also like, post-consumer waste is a really good substrate because of all the nutrients that are there. But again, there are limitations on what we can use there. We are primarily focused on substrates that qualify as feed or pre-consumer waste here in EU.
Prathiba (00:22:06):
So the substrate that we primarily have tested here, or test or investigated here are pre-consumer waste, like fruits, vegetables, bakeries grains, waste and products, brewery waste and silage, I'm not sure if that's permitted. The fermented agricultural waste product. Yeah, we primarily restrict ourselves in the range of products which are permitted to be used meat and fish are not currently allowed, but outside EU yes, you can include they have beneficial advantages to addition, to of adding it to the feed as they enhance and improve the minor as it profile, right as it profile. But again, we are in, within EU, we are limited, but then it depends where we are where we want to set up these factories.
Katharina (00:23:15):
What maybe also needs to be added is that even if we look, so we have projects in Europe, we have projects outside of Europe, and as Prathiba mentioned, there's a variety to the feeds that we are allowed and able to, to feed in those regions. Even within Europe we see a lot of reliability depending on the geographical location in certain countries or in certain regions even, a waste stream or a byproduct stream might be available at like a low cost or even for free or even for an added revenue. So some of our customers actually make money on taking in those byproducts and converting them. So, manufacturers sometimes have to pay to get rid of it. So it depends on what type of business they have, what type of business model and which region they're in.
Katharina (00:24:16):
And depending on that, we modulate our feeds accordingly. And also another factor that is still in the early stages from an economic standpoint in the industry, but that we see coming up is the purpose of the end product. So whether you want to, we have, we know for example, businesses who very few, but they have a very nice market to sell fat lipids. It’s and then the nutrition of the insect, of course, has to be the density, the nutrition as well as the grow out period is different for the purpose of harvesting a more fat heavy end product and a protein rich product. So also there's variabilities that we can, that we can play with.
Ryan (00:25:17):
Hmm. So is that, is that how much of the, so you're basically saying that the diet that you're feeding them greatly influences the nutrient content of those insects once you harvest them?
Katharina (00:25:30):
At least the ratio. The ratio It does, yes.
Prathiba (00:25:35):
It's, it's, yeah. Okay. It's in a range. But yeah.
Scott (00:25:41):
And what about the lipids? I'm kind of curious about that. Are you changing the fatty acid profile in the insects? Are they going to take into their bodies basically the fatty acid profile of what they're consuming?
Prathiba (00:25:53):
Yes. again, like Katharina said, the same logic holds true here as well. You can modulate the fat acid composition of larvae through their diet, but only to a certain extent. Yeah. Beyond that, you cannot, no matter how much you change. So for example, like if I can increase, just as an example, I can increase omega-3 fatty acids by including some fish oil in the diet, but not beyond a certain point, then it starts having negative effect on other nutrient composition. So you can play with these parameters through diet but within a very narrow range. And that range, how narrow and wide it is, depend on which macronutrient we're talking about. Nutrient like protein or lipids.
Ryan (00:26:42):
Is there any negative impacts? I've fed quite a bit of bakery waste before the ruminants, and I know there's, you know, limitations of course on the fat content that you can't get too high or, but more importantly, on the sodium content, which can get pretty high in some of these waste streams. Is there any limitations in that respect that you have to be careful of the products that are coming in that could have a detrimental effect? I mean, other than the consistency, the fluffiness factor?
Katharina (00:27:16):
The fluffiness is a factor as well, that we have to modulate. Right? The density of the feed has a big,
Prathiba (00:27:25):
Yeah, I mean the, of course, like as in case of bakery, the fat accumulation will directly be related with the fat content of the input as well as sugars that they are in. In terms of non macronutrient aspects of the incoming substrate what you focus is on micro elements on the heavy metals and the toxins and also microbial infestations possible. We know that Black Soldier larvae primarily do not accumulate any toxins, so they are able to degrade it. So we do not worry about those in the input diet. In heavy metals, there are some which have been shown to accumulate a bit higher than threshold, but almost everything else, no, it's below detection threshold. So it's like they are not accumulating heavy metals, but you still have to be you still have to look at the heavy metal composition of the incoming substrate.
Prathiba (00:28:28):
And again, with the micro elements as well. For example, calcium accumulation in Black Soldier larvae lab is higher than other animals, but then other elements are way lower. So you have to look at these aspects and again, keep it in light with what is it that you want your end product to be. But of course, heavy metal is not at all related to end product. You have to make sure it's below detection threshold to toxins, any other kind of toxins we don't have to worry about. And similarly for microorganisms that most of them are consumed as part of the diet, but if the diarrhea left in the substrate for too long and there is too long fermentation happening, or too long of unhygienic conditions, then not inside the gut, but the larvae themselves can get infested on the surface with micro-organisms, and then it can have detrimental effect on the insect meal that you'll prepare out of these larvae. So those things need to be kept in mind.
Scott (00:29:26):
Hmm, You know, it strikes me that, sorry, Ryan, it strikes me that these byproducts could also be recycled through mammals. So what's the advantage of recycling them through insects versus you know, a chicken or a pig
Prathiba (00:29:44):
One is definitely the environmental aspect of it. One is the emissions that you compare in converting these the low value input to high value output, the amount of greenhouse gasses that you emit, because this is also related to a question that I came across that whether or not we can feed Black Soldier Fly meal to ruminants or like chicken and pigs are quite well known, and they're also, they see the same thing that you, if you substitute part of the protein aspect of a human and diet with Black Soldier Fly larvae, you see a dip in methane production. And it's the same thing when you are converting these raw substrate, plant based substrate to animal protein, using other animals as against insects. You have much higher greenhouse gas emission and the space that you need to achieve this compared to insects, which can be grown through what they call farming in less space with much, much less greenhouse gas emission.
Scott (00:30:59):
So you had said it, if you feed it through ruminants, you can reduce methane production. Do you, do you understand the mode of action?
Prathiba (00:31:07):
No. So I think they're, these are really, really recent studies, I think like the last one, as, was it at the end of 2022 or something? And they haven't really, they're still following it up, but they place certain kind of sensors and then they just measure the gas exchange compared to a diet which is not substituted with Black Soldier Fly larvae in the diet. So compared to what the one which is, and then measured the gas emission and the dynamics there, then without any detrimental effect, they saw a dip in these gas emissions. So it could be that it is, but yeah, we do not know the mode of action there yet.
Scott (00:31:48):
Mm-Hmm, is there, sorry, Katharina, you were gonna say something?
Katharina (00:31:52):
No, I was going to say that the economic from, like, again, looking at it from just a purely economical, practical approach right. There are certain byproducts that are already, that are that are competing, so to say for like between insect substrate and an animal feed. For example, dry bread, old bread that is also here in central Europe, in all over Europe, in fact being converted into like being dried, crushed, and fed to pigs. And so, that product if it occurs in larger amounts of centralized spaces, there is a market value to it, and there's definitely a competition between is it being fed to insects or is it being fed to pigs, for example directly. With a lot of other substrates, well, first of all, the inclusion the percentage of inclusion is a topic here.
Katharina (00:32:52):
So in pig diets, you can include a much smaller percentage into their diets than in insects, for example. So we see that across a lot of different waste streams that the inclusion level can be much higher. And another factor is simply practicability and also cost of processing. So for example, if we talk about pre-consumer waste, such as fruits and vegetables in order to make this available as a pig feed you would need to go the extra mile to, you know, to process it in a way that pigs in an industrial setting can actually be fed with it. And it's not really practical in many, many ways. Well, as the insect is in an industrial process, simply an in between step to make sure that these waste streams, these byproduct streams that are not easy to convert in other livestock production systems, can be fed to insects by being crushed, mixed, and just distributed into production crates of insects. So it's a practicability of the processing and the saving also of investment costs and processing costs oftentimes
Ryan (00:34:15):
Is there any potential right now at my understanding is it's, you're either producing Black Soldier Flies or another type of insect. Is there any potential cohabitation of multiple species where you get some type of a symbiosis and have a benefit? Or do you envision it's always gonna be one particular species grown in one setting, and maybe they're mixed at the end if you're trying to get a specific nutrient profile or something like that for the end customer?
Katharina (00:34:51):
That is a really interesting one. Because I have heard of or I, we were approached as a company as well by customers that are interested in synergies between plants and insects to a certain degree. For example, mushroom farming and insect farming. So the mycelium that is left in the soil. And so on, or in the coffee grounds or in the straw, depending on the type of substrate that is being used, that that is being recycled at the same location for as a substrate for insect feeding, which I think is incredibly exciting. We haven't seen it at an industrial scale at this moment of time yet. But I think there are projects along those lines. We have experience in growing mealworms which is an insect species that can be used for human food from a regulatory perspective right now, as well as Pratibha mentioned before, though, the lifespan is very, it's six times as long as Black Soldier larva and the feed substrate is very different.
Katharina (00:36:01):
So even though the type of systems that we use for, for those different, two different types of insects, as long as they are an insect larva in their juvenile stages, there are very similar techniques technologically speaking how we grow them. But to combine them, that's an interesting thing, which I wouldn't right now from a process perspective, I think it's quite out there. But it might be possible in the future, maybe if it's, if it's the same like larva stage and not, you know, flying versus jumping, that could be a huge difference. But,
Prathiba (00:36:48):
But it could create space for like, at the processing stage that even if we are a single producer is producing larvae of only one species at the time of creation of the insect meal, the larvae or the defatted powder is taken from two different insects and then processed together to create even a higher quality meal.
Ryan (00:37:13):
So basically, maybe the next step then would be thinking about like vertical farming.
Katharina (00:37:20):
It is vertical farming.
Ryan (00:37:21):
How would this fit into that concept? I mean, it seems like it would be a natural, there, there's gotta be some synergy there. And we were talking about the individual species, right? Maybe aquaculture, poultry, ruminant, insect, whatever. But is there a way to actually combine in a vertical farming method?
Katharina (00:37:41):
We are vertically farming basically insect larva. So we have production, so our production systems scale over from a few thousand tons of input to multiple thousand tons of input of fresh matter feed per year. And along those lines, we see the warehouse, basically, we, the automated warehouse that is in an automated fashion, the centerpiece of the insect rearing unit that goes into that scales into the height. So we have two layer systems in the, or one layer systems even for very small systems, then two layer systems for say, pilot facilities. And in three to six layer systems for the larger production sites it is always a challenge in terms of ventilation, making sure you have an energy efficient ventilation system and a ventilation that is really equally distributing the air throughout the system. Specifically when you have multiple stages of the insects that emit different levels of heat and energy. That is a challenge. But the insect is perfectly suited for vertical systems because we're not dependent on soil or ground, or we don't have to transport them. We always transport them in a crate which is the perfect unit for any types of logistics system that goes into the into the vertical.
Scott (00:39:14):
Hmm. You know, in other parts of animal agriculture we're very precise in how we feed our animals, you know, specific amounts of amino acids and fatty acids and minerals and trace minerals. How much is known about the nutritional requirements of the Black Soldier Fly and how precise are you? Right? I mean, you're using all kinds of feed stuffs coming from all different directions and yeah. So, how do you go about understanding what needs to be supplemented with the feed stuffs that you're bringing in?
Prathiba (00:39:47):
So, that's where the bio feasibilities that Kathrina was talking about earlier directly come into the picture like before we go into the nutritional requirement. But of course, when we assess a particular substrate for its consumption ability to be consumed by Black Soldier larvae, we also look at what is it that we, what is the end product that we are targeting at? So if it's lipids, we do not need to nutritionally balance the input diet because we do not need the output to be of certain composition, or if the target is just to get the waste consumed and converted into fertilizer and sell it, and not really what the larvae nutrient composition is, then also you do not focus on nutrient composition of the input diet. But that said, most of the time the focus is on the nutrient composition of the larvae’s end product that we want, certain quantity of protein, certain quantity of fat in there.
Prathiba (00:40:49):
And for that, the input substrate also has to have certain level of protein and certain level of fat and carbohydrates. And a lot is known about what should be the nutrient requirement of Black Soldier Fly larvae input feed within certain ranges. We also have information on what should be the proportional distribution, as in what should be the issue of protein to carbohydrate in the input diet that you should give so that you get your protein and carbohydrates in the end product in the range. We know that Black Soldier Fly larvae , as in products, can have proteins somewhere between 30 to 50% of their fresh weight. They can have fat ranging from 11 to 35% of their fresh weight can be fat. So we know these ranges, that these are the output ranges. And on which side of the range do you want your end product to be,
Prathiba (00:41:43):
You have to tailor your input also accordingly. And again, for like amino acids, we know they're essential, amino acids, they're non-essential, amino acids, so essential amino acids. You have to make sure that they are somehow supplemented in the diet, and the larvae have it. If those are desired in the end product, whereas non-essential amino acids, they will be able to synthesize within the body from other macronutrients. So that information is there. And then we tailor our input diet. So that's where even when the customer comes with a really nutritionally poor diet and want the end product to be of certain quality, then you cannot directly consume the waste as it is. You have to manipulate it. You have to see what needs to be added, some other cheap inexpensive ingredient, which does not add much cost. It's still a waste stream. But supplements what is lacking in the diet in order to make it nutritionally balanced for the larvae to be able to reach the target level of macronutrient in its stage.
Ryan (00:42:48):
Sounds like we need choline enriched insects.
Katharina (00:42:53):
I mean, it's as in any other livestock feed, I think it's a battle about, it's a battle in terms of the economics of it. So you try to get the most inexpensive feed recipe that will give you the highest possible output. And right now the industry is still in a professionalization stage. I mean, we, of course, other livestock industries are also fine tuning and fine tuning and fine tuning. We're still learning things about pig nutrition, right. In, in the individual phases of the, of the piglet and the sow and the and all this. So we're learning, we're making huge jumps. We have made huge jumps in the insect world over the last years. So that there's a basic foundation, I would say.
Katharina (00:43:47):
But overall in understanding the species in what's known in the industry as benchmarks there's still a lot to be learned. Also from a regulatory perspective, what there's some very interesting things coming up in Europe, for example, where we will see, probably pretty soon, we'll be able to see more non-food inclusions non-food applications of insect products that are in those cases will, in the future most likely be allowed from a regulatory perspective. So it will be then used, the insect will then be used more of as a waste management tool so to say, to have non-food application output. So all of these business cases play out very differently. And then, yeah, make it, make it necessary to have a lot of different feed recipes that we could, that we could use.
Scott (00:44:57):
Katharina, I'm gonna want to change direction on you here just a little bit, and have you talk a little bit about the facilities itself and how you rear these Black Soldier Flies, right? You start off by saying it's the world's smallest footprint or something to that effect. So walk us through that. What's it look like? What are the stages and what do you do at each stage?
Katharina (00:45:16):
Right. Okay. So in the rearing factory, so in the main, main feeding factory we have stage one, which is the feed processing. So depending on the type of input that the customer chooses or we choose, so whether it's a potato based or a bread based, or a vegetable based recipe we might have we have a receival of the, of the product in shoots or in pits in the ground which is then being crushed, transported further dewatered maybe in case sometimes even fermentation is a topic adding organic acid or pre-treatment of the feeds. Then they are mixed. So usually a feed consists of a multiple of components in order to reach the right fluffiness, the right texture, the right density that we need. And then it's being transported into the second stage which is already inside a climatized within climatized conditions, which is, we call it a tray handling system.
Katharina (00:46:23):
So it's a robotic handling system where the feed is being dosed into crates and the crates are being handled. So in our system, it's pelletized crates where the insects where the feed is being dispensed into. And in that robotic tray handling system, there's literally also a robot that doses the baby larva, the neonates into the system. And then from there, they go into the third stage which is the bioconversion chamber. And the bioconversion chamber can be imagined as a big climate chamber, a wreck system that might go what I said before, from one level to six levels high or even higher in some, in some cases where these trays are stacked on pallets. And they go in there and they spend, depending on the grow out period of the individual feeds, about seven days of main rearing.
Katharina (00:47:29):
So we have a pre rearing, which is nursery, or the, the early stage of the development of the insect. That's typically five days. And then we have a rearing phase, which is the main feeding phase, which is six to seven days, depending on the feed. And when they have absorbed this rearing, so they eat the feet that is in the crate. And after they have absorbed this rearing, they are being transported back into the tray handling system. The crate is emptied and the substrate plus the grown out insect larva go into the processing area, the last stage and in the processing area, they are separated from the substrate. So then you have a larva fraction and a substrate fraction that then we call frass. So once it's eaten up substrate and manure we call it frass.
Katharina (00:48:22):
And this frass is then either composted or in, again, in Europe we have to heat it up to 70 degrees for one hour to heat treat it to hygienist it. And then it is, depending on a customer case, oftentimes palletized, and then it's a palletized fertilizer and a fresh larva fraction goes into inactivation and after inactivation, which is, for example, a steam tunnel. So they are killed by steam or by blanching, sometimes by freezing in some systems. In ours, it's heat treatment. And then they go into either a dry rendering or a wet rendering, which you may be very familiar with from the feed industry. So they are then dried, defected, and milled. So that's how you result in the fraction of fat and defatted powder. And in the wet rendering process you have the same output products but just by the wet rendering methods. So drying down the material at the end of the process and not in the beginning of it. And that's the, that's the basic case of, of rearing factories.
Ryan (00:49:41):
So what's the biggest limiting factor? I'd met a gentleman at a conference I was at in the UK that's on the genetics side. I'm sure you know who he is. And he was giving me some insight. Ask him the same question as well, what's the limiting factor on the, the real scale up and decrease in terms of the cost and efficiency? And then my follow up question is, once we get to that point, do you envision an issue with you know, in the US we call them CAFOs, a Confined Animal Feeding Operation. Do you envision that then becoming an issue as well with insect rearing?
Katharina (00:50:27):
Yeah, in, I mean, in, in terms of scale up I would say that at, so at at the various scales the economies of scale come into place when we talk about smaller system, like agricultural systems where we were the capital investment of dry rendering or even a wet rendering line does not make economic sense to most producers that are on a small scale. So what is happening also in other types of agriculture also starts happening in insect agriculture where there are growers. So there are agricultural facilities that only do the grow out, and then they might, maybe they might dry the product or not in dry the product, but actually transported from their facilities to centralized processing facilities. So that is one trend where we see that we can buffer economies of scale by going with a traditional, more or less traditional agricultural model with large insect processing or insect growing facilities.
Katharina (00:51:38):
The keys of the scale up is, again, in the capital investment. So we're talking about production crates. So you still need, with the growth of the facility, your return on the processing equipment scales very nicely because the larger the facility becomes, the more effective it becomes to have a processing line. And the longer you can run those, but the rearing facility grows proportionally, so your capital investment at a certain scale does not go down proportionally because you still need plastics or you still need materials as an input and to run, to run those factories. So that is a thing there where we're also continuously looking into, into different different ways of growing. However, the production unit of a crate is still, if you wanna stay flexible in your production system, it is still a very nice go-to because any type of automation system can handle it.
Katharina (00:52:56):
You can use standardized equipment to operate with it. And therefore it is still a go-to at this moment of time. Another thing is the reproduction of the insect. So again if production sites are too small it is not economically feasible or viable to grow baby larva onsite. That is also what we see for most of our clients, that the sites are still too small to make it viable to grow out to reproduce onsite. So therefore we supply baby larva only at a larger scale. Does it make sense to have reproduction onsite and have really an integrated, integrated facility? But as you know, with any large scale system, you face a threat in the risk that if you, you want to segment and compartmentalize these stages of production in order to have a more resilient system to make sure if one part of the system is going down, that you still have ongoing production. I would say overall, we're not yet there in the industry to say this is the maximum, right? We're still, it's still a small industry. We're still by far not where we see the limit or where we have even approached a critical scale of where we can say, okay, we can place that many tons of insect protein on the market. So, we haven't seen that in real life yet.
Scott (00:54:47):
You said it's a small industry today. What are some of the uses or what species are currently consuming insect protein?
Katharina (00:54:58):
The end product? So most of the products traded in Europe is predominantly pet food products. So dog and cat food. Of course there's also exotic birds, so insects as feeder animals, of course, that is a niche market that is still there. And increasingly we see inclusion in fish poultry and, and, and pig feeds. It's starting.
Scott (00:55:32):
Okay. And then what would the advantages be in the pet foods?
Katharina (00:55:39):
So it is a highly digestible feed. We see good results, we know of studies that show good results in terms of stool quality, which is a really important factor in pet owning that you have no, you know, issues in having them around in the home. It has hypoallergenic tendencies where we're not the experts on the end product. I think you are much more the experts on this topic than we are. But we see the hypoallergenic effect being used a lot in in the communication of the inclusion of
Katharina (00:56:22):
Insect in pet foods. And it has a marketing value as well for the carbon emission saving. So if you can reduce carbon emissions in your pet food, that's a start for many people.
Scott (00:56:39):
You know, I recall from the webinar that you were saying that a certain percent of the diet could be replaced, andI was unclear, did you mean a certain percent of the diet in total or a certain percent of the protein within the diet could be replaced with insect protein? And I think you were talking specifically about poultry and swine diets at the time.
Prathiba (00:56:59):
Yes. There are different levels of inclusion to replace the protein content, mainly in those diets. I mean, whenever we talk about inclusion of defected protein powder or defect insect meal in diets there is a large, a large part of that is protein. So it's about 60% protein in the defatted powder. But of course, you have another fraction that is not only proteins. So you will of course, also add other nutrients in the diet, but mostly we're referring to the replacement of certain share of proteins.
Scott (00:57:36):
So why couldn't you replace all of it? Is it…
Prathiba (00:57:41):
It actually, like even what Katharina was saying to your previous question as well, because the studies that have been done, they have assessed actually inclusion of the whole larvae as well as the defatted lak, because sometimes the fatty acids, because flexible supply larvae tend to have fat on the higher side, can have detrimental effect on the animal. And that's why the digestibility and consumption is much better when you de-fat it. And that's where the inclusion range is different when you are including the whole larvae versus defatted larvae and depending on the animal that it is consuming actually, because right now the insect meal comprises of the whole insect minus the fat, which includes the chitin, which is the structural component of the larvae , and the chitin actually reduces digestibility. Okay. And that is, that is another line of research as well as a possible site product chain, high value and product site, product chain, where chitin, because it reduces the digestibility of it, but itself is a really high value biopolymer when it's converted to chitin. So if we could separate that also in future, it would significantly enhance the digestibility and the inclusion in animal diet would go really high, as well as you will have a really, really valuable biopolymer on this side. So, Yeah. The digestibility is low because of the structural components which come alongside as you process your insect.
Katharina (00:59:21):
Good. Since we're coming from a very European-centric perspective here, I was wondering if you had any insights for us, actually on the topic of insect ingredients in the US right now. How is everything going over there?
Ryan (00:59:35):
Yeah, I would say it is, there's increasing interest. You know, you hear, you hear more, more folks talking about it at different, you know, meetings, events, but it's certainly not at the level that it probably will be five or 10 years from now for sure. I think anywhere, you know, US, Canada, similar Mexico as well, I mean, all North America, it's all about scale and scalability. And I think, you know, from a production standpoint to be able to really feasibly use it it's, we would need to be able to scale it fairly large to be able to have enough to go after a certain, a certain market. So I think that's probably the biggest thing thus far as the use, that, there's definitely some discussion on it in companion animal food as, as you mentioned, is occurring in Europe. But I, I mean, I can definitely see a lot of application, particularly in the poultry sector in the, in North America as well as corpse, swine and, and aqua. But also in, in ruminants. I mean, there's, I think, potential for lot of use of it in ruminant diets as well. So
Katharina (01:01:04):
With our clients that we're working we're working in projects we see that come from you know, a livestock context and see the conclusion of in the diet, they mostly see the inclusion in the first step for young animals. So piglets, chicken starters. So also because the amount, the quantities needed in that respect are still huge if you compare it in the, like in a global thinking in insects right now. However, it's more feasible and doable at this stage then inclusion in the main, the main feeding stages of, of, of the animal. The scales are just gigantic. I think, but that's, and it’s an exciting outlook. If we think how much the industry in insects has grown until today and how much it we still have, how, how much of a, a way ahead we have in this industry to go.
Ryan (01:02:18):
Yeah. It's interesting. I was gonna ask, and I, I'll have to ask Dr. Oldham Scott, this question, but one of the you know, from a companion animal standpoint, it's interesting as, as people wanna feed you know, certainly in the, in the us I know it's growing in Europe as well, but people wanna feed a natural diet to their, to their pets, when in fact, it's actually not a natural diet. So they're actually, we actually create, when we, you know, when you see these commercials and they, it looks exactly like the chicken that we would consume or, you know, the fish that we would consume, and we're putting that into a companion animal diet. There's actually a lot of components, you know, if your cat or dog or, or whatever is out in the wild eating something, they're eating the hair, the bones, the cartilage, everything.
Ryan (01:03:10):
And we're actually taking that out. So from a nutritional standpoint, that actually creates some issues, some challenges if you feed your dog or cat a raw diet, so to speak. Where, you know, I was actually thinking as you were both talking, if you have an insect protein in there and you could actually combine the entire insect, you may actually have a bit of a better nutrient profile if you can get some of the other parts of the insect in there that actually help the digestive system as it's moving through. So, anyway, sorry.
Scott (01:03:49):
No, that's very, very interesting. Very interesting. Brian, I just noticed we've passed the hour marks, and sadly, I am out of grasshopper, so that means it is last call. And so so, you know, since insects is a still a pretty novel concept, what's one takeaway that each of you would like to leave with the listeners as we end our conversation today? And I'm gonna start with Ryan
Speaker 5 (01:04:17):
Our last call question is brought to you tonight by Purachol. Look to Purachol Chlorine Chloride from Balchem to deliver the highest standards of quality backed by the strictest process controls for a level of purity, safety, and consistency you won't find anywhere else.
Ryan (01:04:33):
I have a good, I have one that's, that I think I've talked to you about, Scott. That is actually my probably geeky scientist coming out. But, you know, as we look and as we were talking, there was an article in the Wall Street Journal about, they've found scientists have found water on the moon in, in some of the particles. And the, it was, the headline just said, you know, it could, could be a possibility for astronauts to live there longer. Anyway, why am I talking about this? The reason I am is because I've, I've often thought if we want to at some point in the future populate the moon, populate Mars, some other area, we're probably not flying cows and chickens to those, to those locations, to try to create a food source.
Ryan (01:05:28):
But certainly we would be able to plant protein. And insect protein is the one that I think is potential for future protein, not only on this planet, but again, just thinking further out into the future if we were to look at a habitating, another, another area outside of the earth. So anyway, that's my, I think in the future, it's fascinating because there's application that could be applied anywhere in the world and probably anywhere outside the world, quite frankly. So that's something very interesting to me.
Scott (01:06:10):
Well, thank you for that. Elon
Scott (01:06:16):
Prathiba, what's your thoughts?
Prathiba (01:06:20):
Well I think I, I could continue from him because it just, when, when we are talking about the moon I got reminded of Carl Sagan and his famous pale blue dot where he says that we are probably still in the time where we can visit other planets, but inhabited, no this is the only planet that we have. This is the only home that we have. And if we have problems here that are arising out of natural situation, fossil fuels, yes, they are a problem, but they are also naturally there. Then we also have to look at the nature for solution, which is, which nature has to offer, and insects are the solution for our problems right now, that nature is generously offering us, and we should not look away. We should actually look at it and use it to save the planet and the only home that we ever have in Carl Sagan's magical words.
Scott (01:07:23):
Thank you. Prathiba. Katharina final words, please.
Katharina (01:07:28):
Yeah, after those magical words, like how can I, how can I put something out there that is more visionary than this? I would, I would pick up maybe on the, on the topic of we only have one planet, and I think when we, when we think of insects being the largest biomass actually on the planet, and we have only managed in our human history to cultivate and to domesticate actually two types of insects, the honeybee and the silkworm then it shows that we have a large untapped resource right at, at our fingertips. That is not the only solution for sure, to make our food system secure and to enable us to eat something when we go to Moon or Mars or, or other planets, but it's definitely one of the solutions that we should look at in a specific type of application where it makes sense, where we can use the end product and really use it, utilize it to the largest extent that we can in that respect.
Scott (01:08:40):
Hmm. Very well. So, Katharina, Prathiba, thank you very much for joining us this evening. This has been a lot of fun. Time has flown by, so I appreciate you spending some time with us here today. Ryan, as always, you have been a great co-host. Thank you for all the help you've given me this afternoon. And to our loyal listeners. We thank you again for coming along once again for another episode of The Real Science Exchange. We hope you learned something. We hope you had some fun, and we hope to see you next time here at the Real Science Exchange, where it's always happy hour and you're always among friends.
Speaker 5 (01:09:13):
We’d love to hear your comments or ideas for topics and guests. So please reach out via email to anh.marketing at balchem.com with any suggestions, and we'll work hard to add them to the schedule. Don't forget to leave a five star rating on your way out. You can request your Real Science Exchange t-shirt in just a few easy steps, just like or subscribe to the Real Science Exchange. And send us a screenshot along with your address and t-shirt size to anh.marketing at balchem.com. Balchem’s Real Science Lecture Series of Webinars continues with ruminant focused topics on the first Tuesday of every month. Monogastric focused topics on the second Tuesday of each month, and quarterly topics for the companion animal segment. Visit balchem.com/realscience to see the latest schedule and to register for upcoming webinars.