Dr. Jaborek gives an overview of his presentation including sire selection, how beef on dairy crosses compare, feedlot performance, liver abscesses and red meat yield. (6:21) Beef sire availability and quality have changed over time with the development of selection indexes and selection criteria. Calving ease, growth, ribeye area,and quality grade are important traits. (10:03)
This episode was recorded in Fort Wayne, Indiana, during the 2025 Tri-State Dairy Conference.
Dr. Jaborek gives an overview of his presentation including sire selection, how beef on dairy crosses compare, feedlot performance, liver abscesses and red meat yield. (6:21)
Beef sire availability and quality have changed over time with the development of selection indexes and selection criteria. Calving ease, growth, ribeye area,and quality grade are important traits. (10:03)
The panel discusses if milk replacer feeding protocols differ for beef on dairy calves. More research in this area is needed. The group then talks about liver abscesses, including etiology, prevalence, and animal welfare and performance impacts. Dr. Jaborek notes calves with liver abscesses gain about 0.2 pounds per day less, on average. The panel believes understanding the impacts of diet differences (beef calves vs. the dairy model) in early life on rumen development would be a fruitful area of research. (16:00)
Dr. Jaborek talks about some of the differences in growth and performance among beef calves raised on their dam, beef embryos from Holstein recips raised in the dairy system, and beef-sired calves from Holstein and Jersey dams raised in the dairy system. The panel talks about why beef calves in the beef system are outperforming those raised in the dairy system, including milk composition differences between beef and dairy cows and milk quantity and availability. Free-choice robot milk replacer feeding systems might better mimic the beef system environment. (26:21)
The panel then explores how beef on dairy calves are fed post-weaning. Dr. Jaborek notes they generally continue to be fed a high concentrate diet which may contribute to the liver abscess and digestive issues given the long timeframe of exposure to concentrates. The panel ponders if backgrounding calves on pasture for some length of time after weaning would be beneficial. The group also delves into how maintenance requirements might differ for beef on dairy crosses and if feedlot nutritionists are making adjustments for these calves. (30:45)
Given the price of beef calves, would it be more profitable to put beef embryos into dairy cows instead of using beef semen to create a beef-dairy crossbred? Matt then asks if any dairy producers are retaining ownership of these calves past 1-3 days of age. The panel discusses risks and rewards of both questions. (34:29)
The panel talks about corn processing and potential impacts on rumen health and liver abscesses. Dr. Jaborek cites a study where feeding more fiber in the form of corn silage did not increase cost of gain, but improved liver abscess reduction by 30 percentage points. (38:47)
Dr. Jaborek talks about yield and quality differences in dairy-influenced carcasses and talks about his top priorities for research in the beef on dairy sector moving forward. (42:21)
Panelists share their take-home thoughts. (46:26)
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Scott (00:08):
Good evening everyone, and welcome to the Real Science Exchange, the pubcast where leading scientists and industry professionals meet over a few drinks to discuss latest ideas and trends in animal nutrition. We've got a little bit of a different one, uh, teed up for you here. Next we've got, uh, Dr. Jerad Jaborek from Michigan State University, and his, uh, we're gonna be, uh, reviewing his, uh, talk titled What's Different when Feeding and Managing Dairy Beef Crosses. Uh, Jerad, before we get started, why don't you just tell us a little bit about yourself and, uh, understand, uh, your Michigan State right now, and just kind of tell us background, where'd you come from, that kind of thing.
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (00:46):
Yeah, so as I was discussing with you guys a little while ago, I'm originally from Wisconsin. Grew up with a little bit of a dairy background from my grandparents' folks and beef cattle on my parents' folk or farm. And, um, did my undergrad at UW River Falls there in Wisconsin. And then, um, had got a little dabble into the research side of things there while I was finishing up. And that kinda led me on to pursue, uh, a master's degree at Ohio State. Um, and I guess I enjoyed it so much. I stuck around for a PhD as well. Um, so start initially was supposed to be doing some beef on dairy research. That's kind of what drew me to Ohio State. Um, unfortunately they tricked me a little bit. Uh, we didn't start, uh, doing beef on dairy that first year, I guess. Uh, someone forgot to breed some cows, so I ended up doing some sheep research, which that, that was quite the learning experience for myself. Um, but great. Anyways. And then, uh, we finally got started with some of that beef on dairy research and did a little bit of marbling research. Um, and then, yeah, I've been at, uh, Michigan State, uh, since I graduated.
Scott (01:53):
Alright, good. Excellent. Uh, were you there at all with, uh, Dr. Felix?
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (01:58):
Nope. No crossover, but Okay. We came from the same, we like to say research lineage, so, um, a lot of history there and what we, uh, staying constant communication. So, um, we kinda know what each other's doing.
Scott (02:11):
Yeah, we did a podcast with her a while back. She's really cool, really like her a lot. Yeah. Good. Uh, Matt gonna be our co-host today. Tell us a little bit about yourself. I understand you work for Balchem.
Matt Pearson (02:23):
I certainly do, Scott. Uh, it's a pleasure to be here. Uh, it only took me five years to get on the podcast, so thank you. I
Scott (02:28):
Appreciate it,
Matt Pearson (02:30):
So I'm, uh,
Scott (02:31):
You're
Matt Pearson (02:31):
Persistent. Yes, absolutely. Uh, I am the Eastern, uh, US business manager for Balchem. I, um, support a team of, uh, folks, uh, across the eastern United States. Uh, and I've been with ball Balchem, as I mentioned for five years. Uh, prior to that, uh, I've been working in industry. I did nutrition work, uh, uh, for a feed company, uh, based outta Minnesota, uh, for several years. Uh, and did vitamin Nutrition work, uh, in between there, there and then, um, I actually was a graduate of the University of Minnesota. Uh, so I'm, I'm a lowly goat for over here, I guess. But, uh, um, I've got a pretty, uh, big passion for the beef industry. So outside of, uh, Balchem, um, I actually, uh, have a small, uh, beef seed stock operation. My, my family and I, uh, uh, do that and we sell some registered cattle. Uh, so, uh, you know how, uh, you know, being a part of this today, it's kind of gonna be fun to, to visit a little bit and talk about impacts on beef, on dairy crossing and, and, uh, definitely some, uh, great, uh, crossover, I think. Good,
Scott (03:34):
Glad to have you here, Matt. Absolutely. Looking forward to the conversation. We've got two co-hosts today. First we've got, uh, we'll go to, uh, Dr. Kirby Kresta, Ohio State. Again. We've got, we've got four people that's got an Ohio State background. I get to mention that once per podcast,
Dr. Kirby Krogstad (03:50):
Buckeye show up, we show up in mass.
Scott (03:52):
We do well, we gotta protect each other,
Dr. Kirby Krogstad (03:58):
I've been, um, a professor at Ohio State now for just a little over a year. I started in Worcester last January. Um, I did my PhD work at Michigan State with Dr. Bradford and was in Nebraska before that with, uh, Dr. Conan off. And, um, I've really enjoyed settling into Buckeye country. I've gotten, I've adjusted to the OHIO chant when it comes up. Yeah. Gotta figure out. So I don't, I don't mess that up anymore, you know, it took me a while to get, go green, go white too. So I, I, uh, I adjusted, settled into that now. But no, I, I focus on dairy nutrition and dairy health research, and if I'm not researching in the lab, I'm probably at home eating pizza, drinking wine with my wife. So,
Scott (04:31):
Yeah. Awesome. Sounds good. And Bill, I guess you need no introduction, but go ahead and tell us about yourself.
Dr. Bill Weiss (04:37):
First of all, it's the Ohio State University
Speaker 6 (04:40):
Dr. Kirby Krogstad (04:40):
I was waiting for that.
Dr. Bill Weiss (04:41):
So
Scott (04:52):
That's the truth. That right. Oh my goodness. When I was there, the wasn't a thing. It
Dr. Bill Weiss (04:56):
Was when I was
Scott (04:57):
There. Yeah.
Dr. Bill Weiss (04:58):
But I, I worked for the Ohio State for about 35 years at Dairy Nutrition, retired a few years ago, and now starting to enjoy retirement more and more every year.
Scott (05:09):
So, yeah. Good. Well, it's good to have you back. Um, so, uh, Jerad, once you kind of, you're gonna be given a presentation here this week, uh, we're at the Tri-State Nutrition Conference. Kinda give us what are some of the key pillars of the conversation or the presentation you're gonna give today?
Scott (05:33):
The economics of Feeding Reassure Precision Release choline reassure is fed during the transition period, and because it's fed for such a short period of time, it costs just $15 per cow. And yet the benefits will continue to generate income throughout the year. Cows fed reassure produced five pounds more colostrum, which pays for your reassure investment on the very first day of lactation cows. Fed reassure also produce five pounds more milk per day every day. That means after the first day, every day is payday invest in reassure during the transition period and recoup your investment on the very first day of lactation after that. You got it. Payday.
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (06:21):
Yeah. So like you said, I was asked to kind of talk about what's different with feeding, uh, beef on dairy crosses, which I think is interesting. Um, we're, we're still, uh, still kind of figuring all that out. I, I, I guess, uh, if I started the presentation said maybe it's not all that different than we think. I mean, we got beef cattle, we got dairy cattle. It's maybe somewhere in between. We're still kind of figuring out where, where that lies in different aspects. But, um, just kind of talk about the adoption, how, how we've seen it change. I'd say it's really changed or started to come on probably since 2017. Sure, there's people doing it before then, but it's really taken off since then. So kind of go through that. Um, we'll talk a little bit about, um, a couple different practices, uh, si selection, some, uh, just some introductory type stuff.
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (07:11):
And then, um, kind of gonna get into a little bit of the work that we're, we've been doing at, uh, Michigan State in terms of research. Um, some of it's kind of your basic, uh, how are those cattle comparing to what we know? So, Holstein Steers, um, we haven't done any, um, haven't been able to publish any data yet comparing 'em to beef steers, but we're currently feeding a group of those cattle right now. So maybe by the end of this year or next year we'll have a publication on that. But, um, kind of seeing where these cattle stack up, um, we know that it takes a little while for you to produce cattle. I mean, you, you pick out the bull, you breed the cow, you gotta feed that animal and deer genetics, um, they're not the fastest maturing as we know in the, the beef cattle realm.
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (07:59):
So, um, those cattle are on feed for a while, so it takes a while to get the final product and get all that data analyzed. So we've seen the genetics change quite a bit since 2017 as well. Um, the quality of genetics that are being used. And so it, it's, it's kind of been changing, but it we're learning a lot. Um, so we'll talk a little bit about performance and feeding those cattle liver abscesses is, has been a big issue. Um, so we're studying that at the same time. Um, we'll talk a little bit about that. And then, uh, maybe one of the biggest things, I mean, that affects, um, the value of cattle is how much product do you get back at the end of the day? So talking about retail yield a little bit, um, there's not a lot of data out on it.
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (08:44):
Again, one of the main goals of the current group of cattle we have on feed, the current study that we're doing is we'll do a cutout on some of those cattle. Um, we know the yield grade equation that we have currently doesn't do the best job at estimating yield. So let's actually, uh, separate all those different tissues, uh, between your, your meat, your red meat, your fat and your bone, and see what, what are we actually taking home at the end of the day and where do these cattle fall in terms of, um, value that we get to take back. So, um, yeah, that's kind of the gist. Uh, they only gimme me 30 minutes and I suppose I could probably talk, you're
Scott (09:21):
Gonna cover a lot in 30 minutes,
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (09:22):
And each of those projects I could probably talk an hour. I mean, when you get the chance to talk about something you're passionate about, you can talk forever. So that's kind of the gist of it.
Scott (09:29):
Yeah. Wow. There's a lot to, again, lot you gonna, you'll
Dr. Kirby Krogstad (09:33):
Be sprint to the finish on that one, won't you?
Scott (09:34):
Yeah, exactly.
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (09:35):
It might be, yeah.
Scott (09:37):
So I'm gonna start with genetics. Uh, just kind it's, I I find it interesting and the fact that it's changed, uh, I, I, I understand that when it first came out, they were breeding them to whatever they had because there was a shortage of, of beef semen. Uh, and then has the changes been intentional, um, by the, the, the bull studs? And, and if so, what exactly are they looking for?
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (10:03):
Yeah, that's a good question. I, it has changed. Um, initially I would say the quality wasn't so great when they started out. Um, the cattle would come out, basically people were calling 'em black Holsteins. I mean, they got the black hide on them, they got 50% beef genetics, but it was probably our lower beef genetics. I mean, maybe that beef cattle producers wouldn't even want to use, right? So, um, left a lot to be desired. So I, I think the, the semen companies really stepped up, um, started developing indexes and selection criteria. And I would say some of, some of those companies all have a different perspective on, on what to look for. Um, so yeah, they probably have different inputs on breed type as well. I guess. Uh, some of what we're seeing, uh, is some of the, you gotta think about economic traits that are gonna be important for you.
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (10:59):
You have to produce a live calf. I mean, if you have calving problems that affects the dairy, that's not gonna help them make money, obviously, right? Um, and you need that live calf so that you can feed it. So calving ease is important at some point. Um, you don't wanna compromise it, um, that way. Um, growth, we get paid in pounds, so you gotta pay for an animal, um, to take up space in your feedlot. Um, those are days that you're constantly feeding that animal. So if you can increase growth rate, minimize days on feed, that lowers your input cost. So I encourage growth. Um, and then in terms of muscling, that's another thing. Looking at ribeye areas, one of the EPDs that you're selecting for dairy cattle are selected for milk production. They're not selected for red meat yield like the beef cattle are. So, um, yeah, that rib
Dr. Kirby Krogstad (11:49):
Looks a little different,
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (11:50):
Oh yes it does. Yes. Uh, we were just ultrasounding cattle two weeks ago for our research project, and the Holsteins are far behind, but, um, yeah, so you gotta increase muscle mass in those cattle. So, um, making sure that that's a priority in your selection criteria. And then, um, we're chasing, uh, quality grades marbling in our industry. Um, the consumer wants a high quality beef product, they're willing to pay for it. So it's our job to make sure that we don't compromise that dairy cattle actually contribute one of the larger percentages or, um, towards, uh, prime quality grades or our superior quality grades. So, um, we like what we see with those dairy genetics, but we don't want the beef side to hold that back in any way. So still making sure that you're keeping that in mind. You can select high marbling bulls as well.
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (12:42):
So that's kinda where I go for trait selection, I guess. Um, there were some concerns about frame, I think earlier on, but what we've seen is that the beep genetics have actually moderated frame compared to, um, those Holstein genetics. Um, and then obviously if you're working on the Jersey side, those gen, those frame genetics are pretty small to begin with. Um, in terms of breed, um, we haven't messed around too much with breed personally, I guess, uh, when I was doing some of my beef on Jersey research at the Ohio State, um, we looked at a few different breeds there and, um, there's not a whole lot of, um, differences. There's some nuances here and there. And then, um, you mentioned, uh, Dr. Tara Felix at Penn State, um, they've done some more in depth research looking at different sire breeds. And again, I think a lot of those, um, there's smaller nuances there, but, um, for the most part, a lot of similarities.
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (13:40):
I think mostly the message I try to say is, you know, everyone's got their favorite breed that they like to raise and they'll promote. Um, but sometimes you need to just select the best bulls within breed or for the best traits. And we had the meat animal research center, they, they publish, uh, across breed EPD, so you can compare, um, CIS across breeds and say, okay, these are the best ones for growth. Best muscling, best marbling. Why not take those? And there probably is, uh, influence on breed. Continental breeds are gonna carry a little bit more muscle compared to maybe your British or your earlier maturing breeds, right? So, um, maybe there's some influence there, but for the most part, I mean, if you just select good cires based on their EPDs and those traits, I think you'll have great success.
Scott (14:27):
Yeah. Kind of wanna circle back real quick and then I'll turn it over to the panels, but, uh, uh, you talked about calving ease, and I'm just kind of curious, your, your, your talks titled what's different? Do you see differences between the beef, uh, studs and, and the Holstein studs? And if so, what is that?
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (14:45):
Yeah, that's a good question. And we, I had this conversation with some friends last night as we were talking about, about beef on dairy. And uh, I don't know that I have enough information to make many claims on that. Um, I think we see that the dam can dictate the size of that calf in a large, a large way. I mean, you look at the difference between a jersey cow and a Holstein cow, those calfs come out very different, right? So I think the dam's pretty influential in that. Um, but, uh, I'm not gonna say too much on that, just 'cause I, I don't have enough data probably to back up any claims on that.
Scott (15:21):
Okay. Anything related to, uh, calf weight? Are they similar? No.
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (15:29):
Um, in terms of the beef on dairy versus the
Scott (15:33):
Holsteins Holsteins? Yeah,
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (15:35):
I think they're probably very similar. They're, they're both coming from that Holstein cow. I think, again, I think that dam probably has the greatest influence from what I've seen now. There is gonna be some variation with Cire, I think that goes across that. But again, I probably can't speak too much to that.
Scott (15:52):
Yeah, you guys have been far too polite. You need to elbow your way in here,
Dr. Kirby Krogstad (15:56):
When, and you're sitting next to Bill. You know, I
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (15:58):
Don't wanna I don't wanna
Dr. Kirby Krogstad (15:58):
Step on your toes here,
Dr. Bill Weiss (16:00):
I guess I'll just start at the beginning. Milk replace, is there different protocols if you, if you're raising a beef, beef calf compared to a heifer?
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (16:10):
That's a good question. Um, there has been a little research that's just come out looking at, so one of the things is, I, I mean, there's not a lot of published research out yet on these beef, on dairy calves. And if there is, you can maybe find it in someone's thesis. Um, and it's not quite there in the journal article yet. So, um, there has been a little bit of research looking at that. Um, I wouldn't say that anything out of the ordinary stands out that you need to do it one way or another. Um, these calves do have the propensity to grow, from what I've seen early on, they start to surpass those straight breaded dairy counterparts. So, um, do they have the propensity to eat a little bit more? Not sure. I've seen some data where their intake is actually a little less than the straight breaded dairy calves and they still grow just as well, so they're a little bit more feed efficient. So I'm not quite sure yet. Uh, I think we need a lot more research on it. I still think it's quite new that we don't know everything yet.
Dr. Kirby Krogstad (17:12):
Well, I think it's an interesting question because you taught, like liver abscesses came up as a concern that people have had, and one of the master students yesterday gave a presentation about, um, uh, calf health outcomes for non replacement heifers and, and bull calves. And, and there's such a wide variation in health status of those calves that are not being replaced or being fed or raised to replace the lactating animals. So I think that, um, is a compelling question. 'cause we haven't addressed how raising those young dairy beef calves will influence, you know, liver abscess and, and rumen health and, and their growth later on in, in that stage of life. So I think it's something that maybe the dairy industry is working towards is, uh, the standards for raising those compared to raising a replacement heifer are kind of merging. I think they're coming together.
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (17:55):
Yeah. I, I mean, from my background previously I didn't have a lot of calf calf raising experience, so I've kind of tried to dive into that a little bit, uh, review that a little bit while I've been at Michigan State just to learn more on my own. And one of the things I quickly noticed is that we have a big knowledge gap in calf research and how it affects the subsequent life and performance of those cattle raised for beef. You have a lot of research on those bull calves for past weaning, let's say 60
Dr. Kirby Krogstad (18:25):
Days, 70 days.
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (18:26):
Well, they could maybe apply it to the heifer calf or something like that, but a lot of those were terminal studies or they never followed those cattle through, and we don't know how those, uh, treatments affect those cattle later on life. So I think there's, that's a huge gap, uh, missed opportunity that maybe we didn't know was gonna be a big question for us in the future. But, so I think, uh, there's a lot of research that picking that can be done in that area. Certainly.
Dr. Bill Weiss (18:58):
So, I, I I don't know anything about beef. Are these, you like beef? Oh yeah.
Dr. Kirby Krogstad (19:04):
You know a lot about steak, right? Yeah.
Dr. Bill Weiss (19:06):
But are, are, are these dairy crosses more likely they get abscesses or is it, do you think it's genetics or is it the way they're raised or?
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (19:17):
It's a good question. Um, so oftentimes people wanna make the genetic claim, but I think it's often confounded by previous experience, how they're raised, um, from what we see, typically, the straight breaded dairy or the Holsteins, they have more liver abscesses than the crosses. The crosses would be intermediate to the straight beef. So that's typically what we'll be see. But again, those production systems that those cattle are raised in are, are so different. Um, where you got the straight bed or the beef calf coming off pasture, they're typically weed seven, eight months of age versus these calves coming from the dairy that what they have six, eight weeks and they're weaned. Right? And so the other thing is too is their exposure to concentrate feeds or high energy feeds. We got these, um, calves coming from the dairy system that are on high energy feeds.
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (20:13):
Um, very little forage trying to promote rapid growth, um, rapid average daily gain. And, um, they have a lot of days on feet on those diets compared to say, your, your beef steers that you're raising. So, um, and the other trend is too, uh, we're feeding cattle longer than we have in the past. We're, we're achieving we higher, uh, final weights or hot carcass weights, and we're trying to get, uh, more marbling in those cattle. So I think that compounds the issue that we have more days on feed for those cattle and it's leading to more abscesses. And that's why, why we're starting to see that more than, or at least we're recognizing it more as a problem than we have in the past. Not that they never had abscesses in the past, but yeah.
Dr. Bill Weiss (20:59):
So for, for my edification, again, I'm, I'm a dairy guy. What are the, in, in addition to animal welfare issues? What's the problems with abscesses? What, what do you see?
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (21:10):
Yeah, great question. Um, so obviously it's a big problem in the plant. So there's not really any discounts or anything applied to the producer when they sell cattle. Um, but that liver would be a byproduct that the packer could sell. So again, if it's condemned for whatever reason, if it's abscesses or whatever it may be, that's a lost value that they can't sell. Um, the other thing is with abscesses, depending on how severe they are, that can make a mess. And let's say it was an open abscess, you cut that, uh, that cut that open and it gets on the carcass that requires trimming. So that's a loss of product that slows down line speed in some of these big plants. So those, those things all affect a cost and of the final value. Right? Um, so those are the biggest ones that I think you can recognize.
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (22:02):
The other ones that are maybe a little bit more hidden are how's that actually affecting performance? And I've kind of tried to tease that out of some of our data a little bit. And what we're seeing is, on average, it seems like it's about two tenths of a pound reduction in average daily gain for severe abscesses. So we have a, I guess I should say we, there's a liver abscess scoring system that's widely used where a zero would be a clean liver no abscesses. Um, you have less severe. So, um, let's say an A minus or a, so where you have one or two, or they're small abscesses versus an a plus, which would be, you have multiple, you have, let's say over four small abscesses, you have a really big abscess, or these abscesses can even adhere to say the diaphragm. Um, and in those cases where we have the really severe abscesses, that's where we're seeing the reduction.
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (22:54):
So, but we've seen it, it can be anywhere from a 10th to three tenths of a pound. So you think about that over a long period feeding period that adds up that that's dollars in the producer's pocket. 'cause I often get questions. I mean, being extension, talking with producers about this data, they're like, well, how does this affect me? Well, this is affecting how your cattle are growing for you, how many days you need to feed those cattle. So, um, I haven't been able to look at feed efficient data. 'cause we have pen studies, so I can't tease that out. But I imagine that affects feed efficiency too. I mean, it's an infection, so we know that you need energy to fight an infection, right? So yeah, that's kinda what we're seeing.
Dr. Kirby Krogstad (23:35):
Yeah, I think that's really interesting the point you make about the raising the systems of those calves being raised on, uh, say seven, eight months out on pastor with mom and suckling versus getting a texturized starter and, and increasing milk allowance generally for dairy calves, you know, maybe four liters twice a day, five liters twice a day. So the carbohydrates that rumen is seeing early in life are dramatically different. And so I do wonder what the rumen development might look at on the water soluble carbohydrates from pasture versus the starch and, um, resistance starch in a, in a calf starter. That's kind of intriguing. Do you have any thoughts on how you think that might affect that rumen?
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (24:08):
I think it'd be something, it'd be great to
Dr. Kirby Krogstad (24:10):
Look at. Probably another thesis, right? A master student thesis or something.
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (24:13):
I think it, it could keep somebody really busy. Yeah.
Dr. Kirby Krogstad (24:16):
Yeah, fair
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (24:16):
Point. You could probably get a few students out of that. Yeah, it's an interesting question. Lot of unknowns. Yeah.
Dr. Kirby Krogstad (24:23):
Um, I was wondering too about supply chain. So we're kind of back to the genetics thing a little bit. Is so the supply chain that that producer is in, is that really impacting that breeding decision or the breed they're choosing to breed their cattle to? And, um, from my experience, you know, Angus is the primary one that I see producers using. And, and at least that's what my family used growing up. We were breeding dairy beef back in 20 12, 20 13. Um, and it was always Angus or Sim Angus or something. So I didn't notice that supply chain matter, do those end buyers have a preference or those packers have a preference?
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (24:54):
They prefer probably whatever makes them the most money. Yeah, there you go,
Dr. Kirby Krogstad (24:57):
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (24:58):
Yeah, so I mean, at the end of the day, you can't see hide color, but I, we have certified Angus beef as a, a huge player. I mean, um, you can get a premium for that, right? So hide color was very instrumental. We have pri a lot of black cattle, right, that can achieve those, um, that certified Angus beef, uh, uh, label. So a lot of people I think, try to at least produce a black calf that gives that calf an opportunity. Now there's a lot of other criteria besides being black that that calf or steer would have to meet in order to get that label claim. Um, I think that's where you see the influence there. Angus is by far one of the most popular, I I'll have a slide later that kinda shows, um, um, units of semen for each of those breeds. And you'll see Angus is by far the most popular and then cemental, and then you got some of the other ones too. But again, those, those are cattle that can be black, right? So, um, I think that's kind of the influence you see there.
Scott (26:03):
What kind of differences are we seeing in growth in that early life, right? We talked about differences. Uh, beef cattle are on on on forage and, and milk and know dairy cattle are on, on grain and milk and, and a little bit of forage. How does that play out in terms of, uh, performance and growth?
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (26:21):
Yeah, there's a really, um, neat study by finesse and others. I believe it's, well it's, I'll say Texas, I think it's outta Texas Tech. Um, where they compared, uh, they had Angus Cied beef calves that got be raised on pasture with their dams, so your beef production system. And then they had, um, Anguscized embryos that got placed into Holstein dams or Jersey dams. And then they had those same Angus bulls being crossbred to a Holstein or a jersey. So they had the cross, they had embryo, they're basically straight beef calves raised in the dairy production system. And then you had the beef calves raised in the beef production system and early life growth. They saw those beef calves raised on pasture with their dams. They started to separate themselves very early already compared to those calves raised in that dairy production system. I think that that's eye eyeopening right there to tell people that those systems are very in impactful and will cause those calves to grow differently early on. Um, and some of those cross calves, they kept, kept up for a little bit, but then they started separate themselves. Particularly the Angus jerseys started to fall behind and kind of remained behind, um, uh, the remainder of that finishing period. Um, the Angus Holsteins, they have pretty good growth. I mean, that's still a, a larger animal, so they were, they were keeping up fairly well, um, from what I recall from that study. So that's kinda what they're seeing in terms of early life between those two different systems that you were asking
Scott (27:53):
About. Can you speculate why, why is those beef calves on on the, the dam doing better, more milk?
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (28:00):
Well, we know that milk composition is different. Um, there was a study in, and now I'm trying to remember who it was by, I wanna say maybe Carter and others. Um, but they looked at, again, we, there, we had a question about some of the milk replacers earlier and they were trying to imitate a milk replace that would be more similar to beef cow's milk in composition versus dairy cow's milk in composition. And, um, I think that that could be, I mean, there's a nutritional composition there. And then again, how much are we feeding that calf? I mean, beef calf has free access. They're, they're eating as much as they want, long as that cow can produce it. Versus we have those calves on the dairy system, they're on some kind of schedule that they get this much and maybe it's always that much. Maybe they don't even get stepped up as they're growing. So, um, I think those are some of the limitations that can potentially cause some of those differences. Um, I suppose it'd be pretty interesting to look at, um, how those calves respond in a, um, uh, a study where they have greater access. Maybe they get a free, you know, free choice milk, um, in some of those automated milk feeding systems.
Scott (29:13):
Well, that was gonna be my next question. How do you try to simulate that at the, at the dairy?
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (29:17):
That would be, yeah, my guess is,
Scott (29:19):
Yeah, kind of goes back to the research that's needed. Kirby, yeah.
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (29:22):
Yeah. Was that a hint, Scott
Scott (29:24):
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (29:26):
Yeah. I think as we get some more research, maybe you can, we can learn from say a study that had automated milk feeding system and see, okay, where are these calves at? And maybe we can program something for producers and say, here's kinda the steps or the progression you need through that calf's lifetime. Or as they, they grow in size. Maybe this is how much milk you need to be delivering those calves to maximize growth potential for 'em. Yeah.
Dr. Kirby Krogstad (29:49):
Well, and in some of those robot systems, calves are getting 10, 12, 14 liters of milk a day. If you'd have told my grandpa that back in the eighties that we're giving calves 12 liters a day, he would've, he would've walked off the said, I'm done with this business
Scott (30:01):
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (30:10):
Put put me on the spot. Yeah. I can't say that I remember those numbers off the top of my head. Um,
Scott (30:15):
And, and dairy composition's changing rapidly. So is it gonna catch up or is it getting behind? I
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (30:20):
Dunno. Yeah, I, I don't know. And I'm trying to remember if I jotted down some of those differences in, uh, in my, uh, conference paper or not. But yeah, there, there's people looking into that. So
Scott (30:30):
Yeah. Good hopeful have, hopefully we keep you guys employed for a while. Yeah. Hopefully
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (30:33):
We'll have someone will look into that and get us some answers on that. Yeah.
Dr. Bill Weiss (30:37):
So, so after these guys are weaned in a little bit, how do you feed these guys? Do they just start on a feedlot diet right away, or?
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (30:45):
Yeah, that's a good question. Um, and again, what's different between feeding them? I would say we don't know. They're still fed like a Holstein would be fed. I mean, that's what we know. They're raised up from that system. There's a lot of similarities. So they've been fed that way. Um, um, and cattle feeding's, regional, I mean, it, it differs by region, uh, available feed stuffs such as that. Um, in our area there's a lot of guys a a lot of, um, calf frasers that like to feed, say whole shell corn in a pellet, for instance, and maybe there's a little free choice of hay somewhere, um, or they're eating straw bedding or something like that. But it's, it's a high concentrate diet from the get-go. Um, once they get 'em transferred over whatever starter they had 'em on, um, maybe they're stepping down protein as those calves are growing. But, um, yeah, right away. So really there's very little transition, I suppose, from those calf raising diets or those starter diets to a finishing diet. I mean, you already had 'em on a really high energy diet, um, and you're just maintaining that. Now, I, my personal opinion, I don't think that's really sustainable. I think that's where we're running into those liver abscess and those digestive health, um, problems with these cattle.
Dr. Bill Weiss (32:05):
Is there any, anybody looked at maybe growing 'em up a bit and then throwing 'em back on pasture? Like, I don't know the term for beef, but I think backgrounding or whatever background? Yeah,
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (32:15):
Absolutely. Uh, backgrounding or stockers. Yeah. Um, and, and there's people that used to do that, um, from Holsteins. I mean, they try to get a little, some cheap gains on 'em, get a little age on 'em, and then bring 'em in. The feedlot is what people like to call yearlings. Um, and I believe there was some work maybe done, there's a grad student doing some of that stuff at Oklahoma State, I believe. Um, so, um, we'll see more what those, those, like I said, there's a lot of new research coming out. It's maybe not quite published, but we'll see what those results are like. I imagine, uh, somebody's gonna at least look at it. Yeah, good question though.
Dr. Kirby Krogstad (32:53):
I was curious with some of the, as these, uh, critters hit the feed lot between the, um, you know, a straight bread beef, beef animal and a dairy beef cross, are the feedlot nutritionist making any sort of cowboy adjustments, so to speak, on like any g numbers on their ration simulations or, or, you know, they're like, oh, dairy beef, they discount 5% or add 5%, you know, are they, is there any of that math going on?
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (33:16):
There's some people I, I actually saw, um, a poster at Plains Nutritional Conference here last week. Uh, they were trying to figure out what the maintenance requirements were of some of the process. That was my
Dr. Kirby Krogstad (33:27):
Next question.
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (33:27):
Yeah. Yeah. Um, and those estimates were way, a lot, a lot greater than previously what had been published for, uh, Holsteins and beef steers. So, um, it comes, d you almost need to have, uh, within the same experiment, you need to have those controls, uh, of, of breed to make fair comparisons.
Dr. Kirby Krogstad (33:49):
And some of that lines up a dairy, right? The maintenance requirement and the last nascent bumped up a little bit, you know, and Yeah.
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (33:55):
Yeah, and I'm trying to recall some numbers. Typically we see that dairy, um, genetics have a greater maintenance requirement compared to our beef. So you might expect that there's somewhere in the middle. Um, and it depends on type, probably a little bit too. Um, I think it, if you're making good selection decisions, we can see that these beef crosses are maybe more similar to beef than they are Holsteins or dairy type. So that may shift. Maybe they're not exactly in the middle, right? They're maybe a little bit more like beef. So we'll see as more data comes out. But yeah.
Dr. Kirby Krogstad (34:29):
I had another off the wall question, and I was thinking about as we're sitting here is, you know, the a beef cross calf right now for a dairy is what, 1100 bucks or something leaving the farm or a thousand bucks? Yeah, something like that. Does it make more economic sense to do the cross breeding or is it even better to do a beef embryo?
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (34:46):
That's a good question. Uh, I am not too familiar on how much it's gonna cost to do beef embryos. I think some people would encourage that practice right away. Um, then I guess you're cutting out the dairy genetics entirely and you just have an, our beef animal, again, from what we talked about, you probably still have a reduction in performance just 'cause of the production system that they're raised in, um, compared to the, the beef animal that's raised in the beef production system. But, um,
Scott (35:14):
And how much more could you afford to pay for a purebred beef calf? I mean, 1100 bucks, that's
Dr. Kirby Krogstad (35:19):
A lot. Well, the, the percent of, uh, someone had told me the number, but the percent of the income for a thousand cow dairy that's selling these cross calves, like getting to be 10, 15, 18% of their income every month. And it's, I mean, that's a big number.
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (35:33):
Yeah. It's another enterprise for 'em. Or at least income source, and so you can't blame 'em for doing it. Um, yeah, we'll, we'll see how the market changes at it. And markets are always changing. I mean, right now we're at a lull in, in the cattle cycle, beef cattle cycle, so we, there's a demand for cattle. I mean, we're in short supply, so demand
Dr. Kirby Krogstad (35:52):
For heifers too, in some cases. Yeah,
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (35:55):
Yeah. So we'll see how the, I imagine maybe the beef on dairy breeding might take a little step back 'cause of the shortage and replacement heifers. Yeah, probably. But um, I think it's still here to stay. I think it's
Dr. Kirby Krogstad (36:06):
Oh, absolutely.
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (36:06):
Yeah. I mean that's a income source for those dairies. Um, trying to remember the rest of your question there.
Dr. Kirby Krogstad (36:13):
No, I, I think pretty much addressed it. Yeah. I, I don't, I didn't expect a concrete answer, but it's one I think about, 'cause that the market as it sits with a glut of heifers and a glut of animals, they're all high value. So all, almost all of them make sense to feed at this moment. Whether it's a dairy heifer, a dairy beef cross, right? You can sell a springer for, or you can sell a fresh cow for 4,200 bucks, or you can sell a beef calf for 1100 bucks. It all sounds pretty darn good from an economic perspective.
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (36:38):
Yeah.
Matt Pearson (36:40):
Question for you is, have you seen, uh, more retention, uh, you know, maybe a dairy producer is, you know, electing to, uh, hold onto that animal and retain ownership and feed that animal longer, uh, or just take, cut, take the money and run, right? Uh, I guess, uh, the question I've got for you is, I mean, it's $1,100 check, you know, you know, day 1, 2, 3 of life, right? Uh, what if, uh, you know, what if they could really capitalize if they've got the space in the facilities, do you think, uh, they'd evaluate doing that? Or, or what's your kind of take on that? Yeah, what have you
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (37:14):
Seen? I I think you bring up a couple different great points there. Um, it really depends on their situation, what they have available. Um, again, you can cut yourself, sell that calf, cut yourself a check right now, rid yourself of all the risk. Um, now on the other hand, if you have the facilities, you have the feed, you, you're willing to diversify and maybe feed those calves until feeder size, maybe 400, 500 pounds, or maybe you wanna feed 'em a thousand pounds, or you're feeding them all the way through. There's a potential for profit there. Again, you need to have the infrastructure, the abil, the labor you need to have all that in place and be willing, or being able to do it. There's also a risk with that. I mean, those cattle have to survive for you too. So, um, but there is the potential to make money on them. Again, just a lot of dairies are, they're in the milk business. They're not in the beef business, so that would just require them to diversify. They need to, maybe they need to put up another barn to handle those calves. I mean, they just don't have the infrastructure, um, to do it for most of 'em. But in some cases they are. Um,
Matt Pearson (38:20):
I guess I would challenge that statement just a little bit, because at the end of the day, all dairymen are in the beef business, you know, because you, you do something with a call cow at the end of the day, right? Yeah. They're,
Dr. Kirby Krogstad (38:30):
You're eating them one way or the other,
Matt Pearson (38:31):
That's right. Yes,
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (38:32):
That is very true. I I'll say the mentality for most of them is they're only in the milk business, but as Kirby was saying right now, that that calf is such a large portion of their income source. Yeah. But yeah, they've always been in the beef business, whether they want to acknowledge it, absolutely not.
Dr. Kirby Krogstad (38:47):
Yes. I I had a bit of a follow up, if I may, on the raising 'em themselves and the question. So I, I've been doing a lot of writing and thinking about starch and starch source and starch ferment ability. You know, on a dairy farm, dry ground corn is kinda the bread and butter. Um, a few folks will do high moisture. So when you're feeding out, um, the dairy beef crosses and, and beef cattle, is it, is it flaked corn most predominant, uh, cracked corn? Like what's the grain source? So if a dairy was gonna say, raise both, you know, their dry ground corn's gonna, the lactating barn, what's the other starch source they need to have on site?
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (39:13):
Corn processing really varies by region, um, down south, or at least on some of the bigger, um, feedlots, they can afford to steam flake their corn. Um, a lot of smaller farms or, um, farmer feeder type operations don't have that infrastructure can't pay for that. So they're resorting to something else. Um, so, um, you got a lot of dry, dry rolled corn, um, over in Michigan, um, where I'm at a lot of high moisture corn being fed. So that's what we've been feeding, uh, through our feedlot. They, they've fed in the past, they, they store it that way. Um, one of my interests is actually looking at corn processing a little, a little bit more in depth and seeing how that's gonna, how that affects, um, these liver abscesses. 'cause uh, much to your point, we know that it affects, uh, the rate of fermentation where that starch is being digested.
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (40:06):
Um, how that affects, uh, gut health in terms of room and pH and ultimate leading to liver abscesses potentially. Um, so I think, uh, we'll hopefully learn a little bit more on that. I think, uh, we may need to be a little wiser on spreading out starch digestion through the digestive tract instead of ohm overwhelming one area potentially. Um, yeah. And the other thing that comes down to it is fiber inclusion, effective fiber inclusion. Um, one of the studies we talk about today is we fed different corn silage levels and it made a night and day difference in reducing liver abscesses. I mean, one of the things people are often chasing, uh, um, the most efficient or optimal performance of chasing the best gains. 'cause they can save some dollars that way. I mean, it, it's efficient production for 'em, but at what point are you sacrificing too much health? Um,
Dr. Kirby Krogstad (41:00):
Pound or two or roughage might go a long way.
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (41:02):
Yeah. So, um, we'll talk a little bit about that today. Um, I, I would say a lot of people say push those holsteins as hard as you can in terms of the feedlot, so you don't get too much frame on 'em, or they don't get too growthy or eat you outta house and home. But from what I'm seeing, or at least what we saw in this study that, uh, we just finished up, um, those cattle eat, but, um, they're a little less fee efficient, but they'll eat a little bit more to reach the same gain. And at the end of the day, our cost of gain was no different between the high corn sage and low corn silage diet, but, uh, we improved liver abscess reduction by 30 percentage units. So it was really influential. So I, I think it's a balance. It, it probably always has been a balance so long as you're not chasing, uh, uh, the production side too much and you, you focus a little bit on the health side, you can have a happy medium, I think.
Scott (41:59):
Jerad, you said in the beginning, uh, uh, when you gave us the overview, you're gonna talk a little bit about retail yield. I'm kind of curious also about quality. I dunno if you're gonna address that or not, but let's say Bill goes to the, the restaurant tonight and he orders a nice prime steak. Yeah. Big spender
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (42:21):
That's a good question. Um, so typically our dairy genetics, uh, let's say Holstein's jerseys, they have a flatter, um, ribeye or lo, let's say loin. So you got your ribeye, you got your strip steak all coming from that loin. Typically on the dairy animals, it's a little flatter, um, sometimes a little longer. Um, we don't see a big difference in weight usually, at least in some of the Jer jersey crossbred research I had done at the Ohio State. No difference. Um, so I think they were seeing, they did some of that retail work. Uh, might have been Texas Tech or Texas a and m on some of these beef dairy crosses and some similar, um, relationships or findings, I guess, um, with that as well. But typically they have a flatter shape. Some people say it's more angular or triangular in shape versus that round appearance.
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (43:09):
So, um, I suppose you could pick it out that way. I think, um, some of the packers try to mold that shape a little bit too, I think, um, influence it that way. Um, so if you had the straight dairy versus straight beef, I suppose you really picking it out. I think, um, with the genetics as we select, uh, for more muscling in these beef dairy crosses, I think it's definitely shifted the shape, um, more towards the beef side. So you probably wouldn't be able to pick that out per se. Um, in terms of shape in or appearance, um, in terms of quality grade, again, like I said, uh, those dairy genetics are, they ha they're known for marbling. Um, they make up some of the higher quality grades or contribute to them and have in the past. And from what we're seeing from the beef dairy crosses, they're marbling just as well. So they're maintaining that. So I expect that, um, we're not really, uh, hurting our mar our, our marbling scores there. So, um, yeah.
Scott (44:09):
Good. Any other big questions guys? I just
Dr. Bill Weiss (44:13):
Got, got one. You said many times we don't know, we don't, we need research. Research for sources will always be limited. So if you had to pick just one research question, what's the most important research question you think needs answering?
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (44:29):
I don't want to give away all my good ideas.
Dr. Bill Weiss (44:31):
Okay. So what's your most important one?
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (44:35):
Well, like I said, I guess we, we've kind of been dabbling in the, the forage inclusion with the corn silage. I think that's an important topic. And I guess, like I said, my next step, I'd like to see how that pairs with, uh, corn processing a little bit too. Um, Nebraska's done some great stuff in both those areas that I've seen, but, um, it's been a while since we've really done a full evaluation on corn processing. Uh, and there's a lot of work being, you know, relating both those to gut health. Um, I think that's been the, the hot topic area. And I, I guess that's kind of where I've been dabbling too. I think we kinda have to understand how to feed cattle. I mean, there's so many different ways to do it and some people have success doing it one way or another. And, um, some people just, uh, um, don't have any success or I mean, they have the problems and they ignore 'em. Ignore 'em, I guess, and just assume, yep, I'm doing a great job. So I think, uh, those are, I mean, we can get back to some of the basics, I think, and figure out where we need to be at.
Scott (45:40):
Yeah. It's been a great discussion. Uh, Jerad, I appreciate you joining us here today. What I'd like to do is we wrap up, is just kind of come up with a couple key takeaways that you'd like to share with the audience and, uh, give you guys just a second to think about that. And I'm gonna start with Bill. He's pretty quick with some, some wrap up question or, uh, yeah. Answers. Okay.
Speaker 7 (46:01):
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Dr. Bill Weiss (46:26):
Well, I learned a lot 'cause this is something I, I took my beef nutrition course at Purdue about 50 years ago. Um, so I think there's a lot to learn, but I, I, I think, you know, the potential is an income stream. We've gotta learn how to do this correctly, both for the, the good of the animal and and profitability. So I think there's just a whole lot we don't know. And I guess, do we extrapolate the dairy growth data since we don't know, or the beef growth data and I don't know the, and, and how to feed these things. So I, I think one thing I learned is there's a lot we don't know much, much more we don't know,
Scott (47:03):
Which honestly has gotta be exciting as a researcher, right? A young researcher failure.
Dr. Bill Weiss (47:08):
I'm not doing
Scott (47:09):
The research. You're not coming outta retirement anytime soon. All right. Very well, we're good with that. Kirby, any final, uh, thoughts, takeaways for you? Yeah,
Dr. Kirby Krogstad (47:17):
You know, I think discussions like this are as exciting to dive into the nuances that exist between breeds or between management systems or whatever it might be. But I always kinda leave with the thought that it really comes down to the fundamental things that we, we try to do every day. And if you're doing those things right, like in a feedlot scenario, maybe it is just a little pound or two of roughage, take care of some of these problems, might take care of 90% of the issues. And then the other one for me is when it comes to these calves, um, especially from a dairy perspective, if you've got a big dairy and you've got a lot of beef cross calves, I I, I don't think it's a wise choice to shortchange those calves. Um, I think we wanna make sure that they're getting the same high quality colostrum and if they need it, maybe some electrolytes. And I think we wanna put those animals or treat those animals like we would our replacement heifers. 'cause I think that'll pay off in the long term, especially if you're doing it within your own production setting.
Scott (48:03):
Yeah. Great. Great. Matt? Yeah,
Matt Pearson (48:07):
I think, uh, one, one key takeaway is, you know, we're, we're really at the, the forefront of all this still. I mean, after, you know, many years of, of beef on dairy, uh, crossing here and, uh, you know, and it's more than just, you know, the, the black cheap bull that we got out of the tank, right? I think we're really making, uh, strides and improvements in terms of, uh, genetics that are gonna influence, uh, uh, yield and performance, um, but still offer a, a low birth weight or a, a moderate birth weight calf, right? Uh, so it, it's, it's really, uh, exciting, uh, to see this kind of continuing to develop and, and, uh, and grow. And, um, I, I'm really looking forward to seeing how, uh, we can maybe as an industry, we don't just look at, you know, the, the semen costs on the front end. Uh, what can we do to, uh, really think about, yeah, the semen cost is there, but there's a, there's something on the back end that we can, we can profit from, right? By improving performance and, and quality and yield.
Scott (49:06):
Yeah. Good comments. Jerad. I, you know, this gotta be an exciting time for, for people like yourself. There's so much we don't know, it looks like an opportunity to me for the dairy people to learn from the beef people and the beef people learn from the dairy people and, and, and, and learn things because there's two different management practices. So you're kind of in a sweet spot of research, I think, for, for a, a dairy, uh, researcher. Um, couple comments, uh, from you as you wanna wrap this up.
Dr. Jerad Jaborek (49:33):
Yeah, I, I think those were great. Uh, summary statements or takeaways, guys. Um, the other thing, uh, like I said, I think there's just a, there's a big knowledge gap between that early life management and how that affects that animal later on. And there's so much potential to learn from that. Um, so it'll be interesting to see what, uh, kind of early life interventions, uh, folks try to apply and see how that affects, uh, future performance of that animal.
Scott (49:58):
Yep, for sure. Jerad, thank you for joining us today. Matt, first time, let's not wait, uh, five years till you come back.
Dr. Kirby Krogstad (50:05):
A golfer. So wait, two or three
Scott (50:07):
That's right. Bill, it's always, uh, a joy to have you and Kirby, thanks for joining us. Thank you. We'll see you and uh, I think maybe tomorrow you're gonna see you again. I believe so. Alright, good. Uh, thank you guys for joining us. This has been great. To our audience out there, thank you for coming along with us on another episode of The Real Science Exchange. I hope you learned something. I hope you had some fun. Hope to see you next time here at Real Science Exchange, where it's always happy hour and you're always among friends.
Speaker 7 (50:36):
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